Need help with 8 speed transmission

[tntatro 171]

Hello, this is my first transmission rebuild. It was off a 1972 Raider 12 so I thought it had a limited slip differential and took it apart to see why both wheels were not grabbing. It turns out that it has the 8 pinion differential. There is a damaged bearing, I destroyed the plug for the detent passage and some of the gears have wear but it doesn't look bad to me.

My questions are:

1 - If the other bearings are complete with no damage do I leave them or is there a way to test the amount of wear to indicate whether they should be replaced or not?

 

2 - Where do I get a new 1533 bearing, plug for detent hole, oil seals and gasket and how do I remove the bearing?

 

3 - The gear pictured was the gear with the most wear. Is that perfectly fine to use?

 

4 - I'm guessing that it is a 5091 transmission or a 5073 with the differential replaced. Is there a way to tell what it is for ordering proper parts or are parts going to be the same?

 

Thanks, Tim

[tntatro 171]

Also, I still have not taken the differential apart so I don't know what I might find there. The transmission functioned fine the little that I used it when I got the tractor.

[Racinbob 11,063]

Definitely not a 5073 with a swapped diff. The brake drum wouldn't be on the cluster gear. Here's where you can get the 1533 bearings:

 

https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/bearings.html#!/1533-Bearings-1/p/84932560/category=23725661

 

[tntatro 171]

Thanks, looks like I can also get seals and gasket. 

[stevasaurus 22,723]

Bob is correct...I think we should call it a 5091 transmission that replaced the one that should be there.  In other words...somebody replaced your transmission with an 8 speed.  With that said...you have a typical 8 speed transmission.  Lowell has the 1533 bearings .  If all the needles are in place for the rest ot the bearings, and they feel OK, you will just need seals.  If you think a bearing does not feel right...now is the time to change it out. 

 

outer axle seals...1 1/8" axles...SKF #11050

input shaft seal.....SKF #6105

 

if you brake shaft is 3/4"...SKF #7410

case gasket   TORO # 3912

[tntatro 171]

Thanks a lot, that's very helpful. I'll take a good look at the rest of the bearings before ordering anything. I still haven't taken apart the differential but I might have found a 10 pinion with axle shafts. Someone parting a Raider 10 said he'd see if it has the 10 pinion so hopefully it does and it's in good shape. They seem to be a little difficult to find.

Is the wear on the gear an acceptable amount? It looks like it is worn to a bit of an angle unless they are shaped that way originally. It did seem to shift fine the little I used it.

[Racinbob 11,063]

There's some wear but nothing excessive. I would use it with no worries.

[tntatro 171]

I finally got to the differential. The pinion gears look a little chewed up. Are these good to use or should they be replaced? The rest of the differential appeared to be in really good condition. 

Still no luck finding a 10 pinion. I found a decent deal on a Charger 10 but don't really want another tractor sitting around right now that needs repairs.

[Marv 922]

Definitely change them. I may have a used set. I will check to see.

Marv

 

[Marv 922]

On 7/13/2018 at 9:38 PM, tntatro said:

Thanks a lot, that's very helpful. I'll take a good look at the rest of the bearings before ordering anything. I still haven't taken apart the differential but I might have found a 10 pinion with axle shafts. Someone parting a Raider 10 said he'd see if it has the 10 pinion so hopefully it does and it's in good shape. They seem to be a little difficult to find.

Is the wear on the gear an acceptable amount? It looks like it is worn to a bit of an angle unless they are shaped that way originally. It did seem to shift fine the little I used it.

I do have a set of pinions. Not perfect but can be used. You are welcome to have them. 

[tntatro 171]

3 hours ago, Marv said:

I do have a set of pinions. Not perfect but can be used. You are welcome to have them. 

I think I just found a 10 pinion differential in good condition so I may not need them. Thanks for the offer. 

[tntatro 171]

I got the new 1533 bearing in today. It was fairly easy to remove the old one and replace it. 

I hastily bought a 10 pinion differential off eBay before noticing that it was missing the axle gears and cylindrical spring. I guess that was why it was priced low. I did find some good used gears and a new spring. The differential was off a GT-14 and it has some type of collar on the end caps.

 

I have some questions about the differential:

1 - Do the collars come off the end caps and if so, what is a good way to remove them?

2 - Is it okay to use the 8 pinion axle shafts? They are both 11-5/8" and I think the 10 pinion shafts are supposed to be 11-1/4" and 12". I think that it would offset the wheels 3/8" one way.

[pfrederi 17,734]

The GT 14 didn't use the 1533 bearing.  it had a needle bearing I believe and to make it work thy put a race on teh end of the differential endplates.  It "Should " pull off

[stevasaurus 22,723]

1st...Paul is right...those are your bearings for the carriage of the differential.  They look to be OK...if they are, I would take out the #1533 and use the ones you have.  Reguardless, they should pull off the end plate without much trouble.    You are correct...the axles in the 8 pinion are the same length.  I think the 10 pinion are only a 1/4" different...not sure, but it will off set your wheels...unless you go with some axle showing on one side...or the hub sticking out a little on the other.   

   I just hate E-Bay sometimes for what some people pull on other people.  Don't get rid of those parts though.  It seems at least once a month, a member is looking for some of the parts you just bought....especially those pinions. 

 

[tntatro 171]

I did find the missing parts elsewhere but it cost me. Actually, I ended up buying the gears off the same guy that sold me the differential that they went in. It was way cheaper than buying new ones. Then just bought a new spring. I don't think there is any bearing on the end caps, just the race that needs to be removed.

[stevasaurus 22,723]

You are into territory that I am not sure about, and I have not had any practical experience with these.  I suggest you find the manual for your horse on this sight and also find the Service Bulletin that covers the period when Wheel Horse used the needle bearing.  If that is what you have...the bearing is #111199  used in 1985.  Some members may be able to help, but find those Service Bulletins. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,041]

Click on the picture

Garry

[tntatro 171]

I managed to get the races off by using an oil seal installer. The end plates slide nicely into the new 1533 bearing that I just installed but are a little sloppy in the old one on the other side. When I put an axle through the end plates there is a lot of play compared to the 8 pinion plates though. There is maybe a 1/16" gap compared to maybe a 1/32" gap on the 8 pinion plates. I'll have to check with calipers later to see how much.

[tntatro 171]

I managed to get a second 10 pinion differential with axle shafts but the shafts are a little rough. The picture with two shafts has a shaft from my 8 pinion on the left and the 10 pinion on the right. The picture is a bit blurry but the 10 pinion axle looks much more worn than the 8. When I put the clip on the end it feels really snug but I don't know how it would hold when in use. Any opinions on whether it should hold or not?

The other pictures are showing how much space the ends of the differentials have with the shaft through them. All four have a lot of space like that. The 8 pinion has a much closer fit. Anyone know if that is normal for the 10 pinions or is that excessive wear? I could put a repair sleeve in them but that would be kind of expensive. It almost seems like they are suppose to be like that.

After seeing how tight the new bearing is compared to the opposite side I've decided to replace all the bearings on this one. With the pinion gears all chipped up it makes me think this transmission was beat on a bit. I'm hoping to get it right the first time. 

[stevasaurus 22,723]

That slop you are referring to is quite normal.  That end plate only holds the differential together.  The "C" clip holds the axle gear onto the axle, which centers itself with the spider gears...or pinions.  In other words, you would not want the differential end plate interfering with how the axle gear runs in between all the pinions.  The axle is held in place by the pinions holding the axle gear on one end...and the outer axle bearing on the other end.  The differential carriage rides on the #1533 ball bearing.  Take a look at what I am saying when you put it together...it will make since, cents, sense. 

   On your axles...you could clean them up with a file so the "C" clip looks like it will hold better.  Not a big deal.    If the "C" clip really bothers you...drill a 1/4" hole and use a roll pin like in the #5025 transmissions.  They never had an axle pull out with this set up. 

 

[stevasaurus 22,723]

One other thing...the "C" clip has two sides...one side is flat and the other is rounded...the flat side goes toward the center of the differential...facing toward the short end of the axle.    Makes sense also.  When you really get into it...these transmissions are about making sense...there is a reason they did everything.    "C" clips are cheaper then roll pins.

[tntatro 171]

I like the roll pin idea but drilling through the axle shaft must be tough. What size drill bit and roll pin?

[stevasaurus 22,723]

Wheel Horse used a 1/4" hole and the roll pin is 1/4" x 1 1/2".  This should work for 1 1/8" axles also.  You just need to make sure you get it out close to the end of the axle.  Dry fit the axle, gear and differential to get an idea of where to drill the hole.  I don't think the axles are hardened and they may drill quite easily.  You could probably go with 1/8" hole and 1/8" x 1 1/2" roll pin if you wanted. 

[tntatro 171]

I finally got all the bearings to rebuild the 8 speed transmission. I managed to replace almost all the bearings but I have a couple questions about the last couple. This part pictured I believe is called the splined pinion gear. I noticed that some of the gears are crushed and I was also wondering how to get the bearings out. With all the other bearings I was able to drive them out with a socket but these two need to be pulled out the ends instead of being driven right through. 

1 - Should this gear be replaced because of the damage?
2 - What is a good way to get the bearings out?

[McGrew 460]

Tntatro, I just finished rebuilding the six speed in my tractor, and also had trouble getting those bearings out.  My solution was to chuck the gear up in a lathe and carefully reduce the thickness of the bearing until it fell out.  I realize most people don’t have access to a lathe, and am curious how others got their bearings out.  I too tried to press them out, but due to the fact that those bearings sit on a shoulder, I could not get enough purchase on them to do anything but destroy the bearing  housing.  I wish you luck!