Advice Needed on 6 Speed Transaxle

[McGrew 460]

Folks, I am (was?)  in the process of adding new wheel hubs and axle seals to my 71 Raider 10.  The new hubs have been machined from mild steel, and should be considerably stronger than the stock cast iron ones.  That said, I pulled one of the original hubs off my tractor last night, and am not pleased with what I found....  The keyway in the axle is pretty ugly...  It has seen better days, and I have no intention of putting a new hub on a worn out axle.  The axles are not in bad shape except for the keyway.  I don't see a good option that does not require me to take the transaxle out of the tractor and pull the axles.  I  watched the stevasaurus videos on rebuilding the 5060, but believe my tractor has the 5073?  Is it safe to assume they are similar?    I am not looking forward to the additional work, but want it to be right.    If I pull the axles out, I can have the old woodruff key slot welded up.  I can then either cut a new slot for a woodruff, but why not machine a full length keyway for a 1/4" square key?   Every thing I read on Woodruff keys is that they are for "light duty" applications.  The new hubs I made are longer than the factory units, by 5/8", giving more contact with the axle.  The woodruff key I pulled out last night is only a few thousandths  over 1" long.   If they axles were machined for a full length key, I could triple the amount of contact surface  between the key and the hub.  What are your thoughts?   Is there an easier way out, and still make it right?   Thanks for any suggestions!

[953 nut 55,839]

Here is a thread that should solve the problem.

 

[ebinmaine 68,445]

5 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Here is a thread that should solve the problem.

 

 

I'll second that.

 

 

 

I just split the trans on my Honey's 657.

First one I've ever done.

Actually pretty easy.

Got the gasket from Toro and @stevasaurushas a parts list for seals and bearings.

 

You'll want to put new wheel bearings in for only a few bucks each.

 

Not sure how much benefit there is in a longer keyway but it makes sense to me that it should be stronger.

 

Huge benefit in having a second set screw if you don't already.

[Achto 27,815]

When ever I take a tranny apart I always cut new full length key ways into the axles. It allows you to use a longer key that covers more surface area (more is better). Along with this I also drill & tap the hub for a second set screw. 

 

A pic of the ones that I did last winter for my Raider 12.

 

Some thing else that I tried on this build was saving my old hubs by cutting a new key way 90 degrees to the old one.  So far it has held up great. Been pulling a mold board plow with this tractor every chance that I get.

 

[WHX?? 49,177]

Just looking for you build thread when you chimed in Dan. I would imagine you could do it without splitting the cases but it would be a job, what with the weight on the tranny and all. I would prefer to split the cases, innards can be inspected that way and then those outboard bearings can get changed out.

[McGrew 460]

Guys, Thanks for the advice and information.  I am not a good enough welder to repair the axles myself.  I will remove the transaxle and disassemble it.  I will replace all the bearings and seals and have a real welder fill the worn out keyholes.  The machining part is something I can handle, and will cut a full length keyway in the axle.  Thanks for the support, but be aware, I will have more questions once I get into this thing!  

[ebinmaine 68,445]

5 hours ago, McGrew said:

but be aware, I will have more questions once I get into this thing!

Awesome!

Oh and ....   

[Achto 27,815]

12 hours ago, McGrew said:

 The machining part is something I can handle, and will cut a full length keyway in the axle.

 

It's a good idea to mark where the axle seal rides on the axle before you disassemble. You don't want to get too close to the seal with your new key way. I like to stay about a 1/4" away from the seal when I cut the key way.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Achto

[stevasaurus 22,872]

@McGrew The 5060 and the 5073 are basically the same.  You can safely use the 5060 videos to tear into your transmission.  The differences...steel plates on the 10 pinion differential...the brake drum is on the cluster gear shaft instead of the mushroom gear...I think yours has a dip stick.

 

outer axle bearings...KOYO/TORRINGTON...#B-1816

AXLE SEALS...SKF #11050

GASKET FROM TORO...#3912

BRAKE SHAFT SEAL...SKF #7410

INPUT SHAFT SEAL...SKF #6105

[McGrew 460]

Thank you for all the information!  stevasaurus, thanks for the parts list.  You saved me the trouble of sending you an email for the parts list.   Achto, good call on the marking of the axles!  Since my hubs are longer than the stockers by 5/8", the keyway will be even closer.  I want to get as long a key as possible so I have as much contact area as possible.  With the stock hubs flush with the axle, I have about an inch of  axle showing, so I should have enough room to  put in a key the entire length of the new hub (3"), and still have clearance to make sure the keyway does not intrude on the seal.  ebinmaine, pictures?   I think I can handle that!  Thanks again for all the help!

[McGrew 460]

OK. Gents, first question:  I plan to start pulling the transaxle out this weekend.  How much of the sheet metal MUST come off the drop the transaxle?  I’m sure I can get it out, but don’t want to do more than necessary for its removal.  This will be my first time taking a wheel horse apart, and thought I would refer to those with more experience.  Thank you!

[stevasaurus 22,872]

You want to follow this manual...Section V.    I'm sure you will have to take off the belt guard and belt...wheels and hubs...seat and fender pan...the hitch on the back...the plate or plates around the shifters...the brake and clutch linkage...and if you can get the brake drum, input pulley off while it is on the frame yet is a plus.     Pretty much, everything that is around the transmission.

 

 

[McGrew 460]

Stevasaurus,  Thank you for the manual!  The trans is out and laying on the floor of my basement.  Everything was pretty straight forward, and I only ran into a couple of snags.  It would have easier if I had taken the hi/lo shifter off before trying to drop the trans, but I was able to get it out anyway.  I tried to drive the roll pin out while it was still in the chassis, but never got a good angle on it.  Regardless the trans is out,and I learned a few things in the process.  Tomorrow I plan the pressure wash the case, as it is pretty greasy.  Once that is done,  I’ll Split the cases and the fun begins...  I have already started searching for the  bearings and gasket you specified. Since the trans was fully operational when I pulled it, I am hoping it needs nothing more than the basic maintenance items.  The lube I drained from it looked pretty good.   Got my fingers crossed!  Thanks for your help!

[ebinmaine 68,445]

6 hours ago, McGrew said:

searching for the  bearings and gasket

Pm sent

[McGrew 460]

OK, guys, I split the cases, and am pretty comfortable with what I see.  The first thing I noticed is the bolts in the differential are backwards from what stevasaurus says (nuts down).   I don’t think this trans has ever been opened, but could not say with 100% certainty...  Maybe there was a new guy working the assembly line the day this trans was built?   So my first question is, when I reassemble it, do i put the nuts up?   After getting a better  look, it appears I am missing a couple of needles from both of the forward most needle bearings.  So they will need to be replaced.   The shafts all look good.  Also, a couple of needles fell out of the axle shaft bearing upon disassembly.  No big deal, as I planned to replace them anyway.  Tale a look at the pics and let me know if you see anything.   I will know more once I get all the gears pulled from the case.  Thanks!

[953 nut 55,839]

32 minutes ago, McGrew said:

I noticed is the bolts in the differential are backwards from what stevasaurus says (nuts down).

You may want to double check the post. I think @stevasaurus has the the transmission half with the snifter in it down when the differential nuts are up.        That is one clean looking gear box.     

[McGrew 460]

953 Nut,  I reviewed stevasaurus’s video, and believe I have the cases oriented the same as he did.  The input shaft is down in the pic of the case with the gears.  I was pleased with the overall cleanliness of the trans after I split it.  I found no metal particles, and just a tiny bit of rust on the top of the case.   Thanks!

[stevasaurus 22,872]

That is a mistake in my video.  The bolts are up in the 3 and 4 speeds, but they are supposed to be down in the 10 pinion differentials.  Your is correct...and the trans looks good.

  Sorry for the mis-information.   

 

[McGrew 460]

Stevasaurus, no apology needed!  Without your videos, I would not have had the courage to start this project!  Ok guys, today I saw the good, the bad, and the ugly.  And I did not watch a Clint Eastwood flick...  I started the disassembly of the gears, and all went fairly smooth.  The only hiccup was when the detent spring and balls for reverse and 1st, and 2nd and third would not come out.  I turns out this trans had a plug (cap?) pushed into the hole.  Once I drove it out, everything came out as planned.  I cleaned all the gears and shafts.  Everything looks good.  I will need to replace a couple of roller bearings, as the needles are falling out.  When I started taking the differential apart is when things started going South...   I learned from stevasaurus video, the pinion carriers (rings?) should not look like jigsaw puzzles...  Then I miked the axles.  Look at the photo and let me know what you think.  I am concerned about the wear on the axle where the axle needle bearing rides, and also where the hub locates.   The dimensions of the axles are in the photo. The ID of the new hubs is 1.1251”.   Please let me know what you think.  Should I replace the axles?    I had planned to weld up the woodruff key slots and recut for a full length key, but do not like the amount of wear I am seeing.  Thoughts?  Also, where do I find replacement pinion carrier rings?   Any help will be greatly appreciated!  In case you cannot read the shaft dimensions, the virgin part of the axles are 1.1246 and 1.1236”.  Where the axle support bearings ride is 1.1235 and 1.1218”.  Where the hubs will ride, the dims are 1.1204 and 1.1200”.

Edited July 9, 2018 by McGrew
Clarification

[Achto 27,815]

14 hours ago, McGrew said:

The only hiccup was when the detent spring and balls for reverse and 1st, and 2nd and third would not come out.  I turns out this trans had a plug (cap?) pushed into the hole.

 

Some simply replace that plug with a gob of silicone when they put the tranny back together. I partially tapped the hole & put a set screw in mine, making sure that my threads were deep enough so the screw would be below the cases outer surface.

 

I would put a post in the wanted section for the parts that you need for your tranny.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Achto

[McGrew 460]

Achto,  Good idea on the set screw!  Thanks, I will do just that.  I don't want to see any leaks when I am done, and silicone while pretty good, does not last forever!  

[stevasaurus 22,872]

Send a PM to @dclarke, he had some spar parts for the 10 pinion tranny...he just may have those rings...he may have the axles also. To me, those axles do not look that bad.  The thing is, any you find, may not be any better.  You could check with TORO, the axles may still be available...but they will not be cheap.  Another option is to have the axles spray welded and turned back to spec.  Just remember that those axles are different lengths.  

[McGrew 460]

Steve,  Thanks for the input.  I am thinking about  making a new set of axles from 4140.  Not sure if I want to tackle that, as I don't have a vertical turntable to cut those splines.  My biggest concern on the old axles is  where the axle support bearings ride.  I will contact @dclarke regarding all the parts.  Thanks!

[McGrew 460]

Steve,  I tried sending a PM to @dclarke, but the message comes back and says he cannot receive messages.  Is there another way to contact him?  Thanks!  

[stevasaurus 22,872]

PM sent.