RJ58 Hard to Roll In Neutral

[Horse Play 393]

Even more great resources - thanks, Steve!

 

I've read a lot and watched your videos multiple times.  I'm feeling comfortable about doing this rebuild, but I still can't figure out why the neutral position isn't really "neutral" in my transmission.  Is it because a gear on the input shaft isn't fully sliding out of the way?

[stevasaurus 22,871]

Really, if you are in neutral with the shifter, you are in neutral inside the transmission.  A bent or broken fork...bad bearings on the cluster gear shaft or input shaft might have something to do with it...it could be just crud in the trans.  I suspect the latter, although your trans looks pretty clean form the last guy.    You need to kind of look for things like this when you take it apart. 

[Horse Play 393]

Alright, tonight I finally got around to disassembly.  The bronze bushings look great and are tight.  The differential feels good and the axles spin opposite of each other.  Here's the bad I found:

 

- Bearings are shot.  All are ball bearings; no needle bearings.  Most of them feel rough when spinning - the outer input shaft bearing is completely locked up.  

 

- Surface rust on some shafts and gears.  Nothing too bad, but there is good build-up on the brake shaft to where I cannot slide off the left bearing.  

 

- Need another left cover.  Not only does it have the terribly welded axle tube; it also has a crack on the inside flat plate below the axle tube. 

[stevasaurus 22,871]

Look at my post #22 in this thread for bearing and seal vendors.  @Lane Ranger may have a side plate that he would either sell and/or trade you.    Don't throw out the plate...it is fixable also.  Wire wheels or light sand blasting work great on the gears.  Emory cloth that brake shaft and then tap off the bearing.    I'm glad you decided to take this apart. 

[Horse Play 393]

Thanks for all the advice.  

 

I cleaned the case casting and side plates.  The cast case cleaned up nice and clean inside- all the bolt nibbies look great.  I found a third strike on my left cover: there's a bolt broken off in the brake band mount.  So between the broken bolt, the crack, and terribly weld axle tube I'll be getting another left cover.

 

This weekend I'll focus on pulling the plate bearings to see if they can be cleaned up and soak everything in mineral spirts.  

 

 

[Horse Play 393]

I decided to save the left cover.  I spent some time and was able to remove the broken brake band bolt with an easy-out.  Tomorrow I'll drop off the cover at the welding shop to clean up that terrible axle tube weld.

 

I cleaned up the cases and primed the inside of the covers when attached to the casting as a guide where to paint later on.

 

Cleaned up the gears with a wire brush and all looks OK; I still need to clean up with emory cloth on the end of the input and brake shafts.  I took a better look at the differential and it needs help.  When I hold it from the axles, I can make it flex at the differential.  I also have a spider gear with two broken teeth. 

 

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,871]

Excellent pictures.  There is nothing wrong with your differential...except that spider gear.  The differential carriage rides on the inner bronze bearings and the axles ride on the outer bronze bearings.  There will be no flex when the differential is installed.  Send a PM to @Jake Kuhn and/or @Lane Ranger for the spider gear.  Be sure to count the teeth and tell them what you have...it is either 11 or 12 teeth.    Probably 11. 

   You are correct on saving the plate.  You are just welding steel...not cast iron....very fixable. 

[Horse Play 393]

Unfortunately, I have had barely any time to work on the tractor - I still need to remove the damaged spider gear.

 

I did manage to get one sealed bearing removed.  I chewed up the plate getting under the bearing - I really didn't have much of a choice to get under the bearing.  Once it slightly lifted it came out pretty easy.  I should probably smooth out the gouache marks - something like a grinding stone?

 

Should all the bearings have a trust washer under them to space the bearing off the plate?

 

Also, I just noticed there is a needle bearing on the input shaft; I think it was locked up and could have been part of my problem.  How in the world do you remove that bearing? 

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Horse Play

[stevasaurus 22,871]

Just take a small, junk wood chisel and use it to  clean up the gouges, then sand a little if needed.  There is only 1 thrust washer and it goes under the bearing, under the large part of the mushroom gear.  Thrust washer 1st, then bearing, then mushroom gear.  Make sure all inside bearings are flush with their holders.  Knock out that seal where the brake shaft goes...use a punch. 

   Two bearings hold the input shaft...one flush on the inside of the plate and one inset 1/8" on the outside of the plate (room for the seal).  If you are talking the bearing "in" the end of the input shaft...I put the shaft in a vise.  Take a small, sharp screw driver, find the thinnest part of the bearing race and tap in gently.  The race is hardened and will start to rip.  You can then grab it with a needle nose and pull it out. 

[Horse Play 393]

Thank you very much again!

 

The damaged spider gear came out very easy - and it is a 12-tooth gear.  I will work on getting out the remaining bearings this week and cleaning up the plate backs.  I may have to pick up another brake shaft - I cannot remove the left-side bearing from the shaft end due to previous damage.  

[Lane Ranger 10,992]

When the bearing gets locked on the brake shaft put it in a vise and pound out the shaft !  I have had several stick on for a while !

 

[stevasaurus 22,871]

File down any burrs first, and a little emry cloth and a fine file helps a lot.    You might be able to get a puller on that bearing also...tap a large chisel of crow bar between the bearing and the top of the small gear to get it started. 

[Horse Play 393]

Will do - thanks!  I finally was able to remove the rest of the bearings.

 

Which side of the sealed bearings face up - the "more closed" side?

[stevasaurus 22,871]

yes...the more closed side is up. 

[Horse Play 393]

On 6/11/2018 at 2:22 PM, stevasaurus said:

Just take a small, junk wood chisel and use it to  clean up the gouges, then sand a little if needed.  There is only 1 thrust washer and it goes under the bearing, under the large part of the mushroom gear.  Thrust washer 1st, then bearing, then mushroom gear.  Make sure all inside bearings are flush with their holders.  Knock out that seal where the brake shaft goes...use a punch. 

   Two bearings hold the input shaft...one flush on the inside of the plate and one inset 1/8" on the outside of the plate (room for the seal).  If you are talking the bearing "in" the end of the input shaft...I put the shaft in a vise.  Take a small, sharp screw driver, find the thinnest part of the bearing race and tap in gently.  The race is hardened and will start to rip.  You can then grab it with a needle nose and pull it out. 

 

Tonight we got the bronze axle shaft bearings and the open ball bearings installed.  None of my original bearings had thrust washers installed behind them.  I can see why the brake shaft should be spaced off the right-side cover - there is wear on the right-side cluster gear bearing retainer where the mushroom gear was rubbing.  What size/thickness thrust washer should I use?

 

You can see where the big brake shaft gear rubbed on the cluster gear bearing retainer. 

[stevasaurus 22,871]

I don't see the thrust washer in the manual, and I do not have one to measure.  It is extremely thin...like 1/64" and the center hole is large enough  to fit over the mushroom gear shaft.  It would go under the large part of the mushroom gear and also under that bearing.  I would think you will be OK without it...just make sure that the bearing is seated flush and you can turn the bearing with your finger. 

[Horse Play 393]

I'm finally making some headway.  Thrust washers are impossible to find, so I searched for awhile and ordered one.

 

* All the side plate bearings are installed, but I still need to remove the input shaft needle bearing.  

* I smoothed out the end of the brake shaft just enough to get the bearing to slide on and off.  I used a DA sander with 80 grit very carefully.  

* Side plates are ready for primer and paint.

* I had a welding shop clean up that nasty axle tube weld.

 

Before:

 

After:

[Horse Play 393]

I finally have the transmission back together (I've been sidetracked with sandblasting and painting.)  Everything went well until I tightened down the left cover - the input shaft would bind up.  I finally discovered that the cluster shaft reduction gear needed to be tapped in a little more because it was too tight against the bearing/left cover.  Now everything spins free with low resistance, all the gears engage and rotate as they should - anything else I should look for? 

[stevasaurus 22,871]

It sounds like you got it together OK..  Nice job!!   As long as when you try each gear, you can turn the input shaft and the axles rotate, you are good to go.  Put her back together and take it around the block. 

[Horse Play 393]

I wish I could, but the tractor is in 100 pieces.  Bad news - I just realize I cannot rotate the axles when in neutral.  

[Horse Play 393]

I temporarily installed the hubs and it took a lot of force to turn the axles in NEUTRAL and it turned the input shaft!  It appears I still have the same issue from before I tore it apart.

 

So do I have something not releasing between the cluster gear and brake shaft when in neutral??? 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,101]

It takes a fair effort to turn the axles so the input shaft will turn because you are overdriving the input shaft.

I do not know the ratio but often advertised as 100:1 which may be engine rpm to wheel rpm.

1 turn of axle = say 75 turns of the input shaft takes considerable effort.

75 turns of the input shaft = 1 turn of the axle should take very little effort.

Others that have tried this on this transmission may have a better recommendation.

If in neutral I have no idea of the force required.

 

Garry

 

[stevasaurus 22,871]

Garry may be onto something here.  Here is what you do...try turning just one of the axles while the trans is in neutral.  The other axle should turn in the opposite direction.  If this is what happens, the spider gears, axle gears and axles...ie...your differential are OK.  You should also be able to hold on to one axle (keep it from spinning) while you turn the other axle.  This would work no matter which axle you turn.   So far so good?? 

 

Now while the trans is still in neutral, try turning both axles in the same direction...like you were pushing the tractor in neutral.  In this case, you are not turning the spider gears in the differential...you are turning the bull gear of the differential...you will also be turning the mushroom gear, so the brake shaft will turn...you will also be turning the cluster gear shaft and your spline shaft along with both fork gears.  What will not be turning is your cluster gear and your input shaft...they may be turning but only because the other stuff is turning and (like the stopped belt) is not holding it still.  The spline shaft is spinning in that little B-108 needle bearing that is in the input shaft.  So, what Garry says, is true...you are turning the trans inards from the harder to turn ratio end.  If you can shift into all 4 gears and turn the input shaft (in a counter-clockwise) direction in each gear...and both axles turn in the correct direction...you should be OK.

 

Watch this video and see if you spot anything that may be different in your trans.  This video is of a 3 piece trans, but all the gears inside work the exact same way as your trans.  Hope this helps. 

 

 

 

[Horse Play 393]

- When I turn one axle in neutral, the other axle spins the same direction  - not sure why because the differential was fine before I put everything together.  It took all my might with two hands on the one hub to rotate the axle.  

 

- When I turn both axles the same direction in neutral, it takes all my might and the input shaft turns.

 

  

[stevasaurus 22,871]

There is your problem...the pinions in your differential are not alternating (one up and one down) .  You can shift your trans, and the axles work like they should.  Basically, you have done what people that use their tractors to pull..."lock their transmission".  You need to open it up...shallow side down...lift off the deeper side of the case (brake shaft side)...pull out the differential.  Open the differential and check the pinions so they are not two up together...they need to alternate.  check this video.    You will not need to pull the rest of the trans apart.