Need 1973 4 speed axle seals

[tntatro 174]

Since I wasn't getting much done today I went out and bought a new drive belt because the one I ordered is taking too long on shipping. Same belt fits my others so I have a spare now. The Raider 12 now drives in 2nd and 3rd. It is raining so I didn't drive around too much. It also really needs the gear oil changed. The axles seem to have some play on the Raider, it's kind of hard to tell. Next time I'll take the wheels off and check for play. I may put in my 8 speed transmission that I recently bought and rebuild the one on it now if it does need bearings. Then I'll know for sure what it has for a differential.

 

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

most of us aren't ambitious to drill five holes

Bosch Blue Granite masonry drill bits work good on metal.

[stevasaurus 22,872]

You might try to heat the hub where that bolt is broke and then take a candle and melt some wax on it.  It is a good way to loosen up stuck bolts.  Glad the new belt got your horse going in all gears.

   On your transmission, that 1" extension seems to be common on the 6 speed, 10 pinion LS differentials.  It allows more trans oil to be in the trans before it starts to come out the plug hole.  The pinions in the LS trans actually "float" in the differential...(they are not on a post).  The LS differential is still going to act like an 8 pinion differential so that you can still steer it when turning.  The LS only works as a limited slip when you are going in a straight line and one tire is slipping.  One way to check your trans...put the front end up against a tree, (have your rears wheels on grass or sand), put it in 1st gear and let out the clutch.  Both wheels should spin if you have a LS differential and the spring (holding the pinion in place), is in good shape. 

[tntatro 174]

I just tried the tree technique. The first time just one would spin, the second time both spun for a couple seconds then only one, the third time just one. Don't know what that means. The fluid is about half on the dipstick so maybe that could affect things.

 

About to try to get the bolt off the hub with wax.

[stevasaurus 22,872]

    Now we are getting somewhere...there is absolutely no way both wheels would spin at the same time with an 8 pinion differential.  If both actually did try to spin at the same time and did for a couple of seconds....congratulations...you are the proud owner of a 10 pinion Limited Slip differential...maybe with a weak spring. 

 

I am going to tell you something about differentials.  If you put your rear end on blocks and put the trans in gear with the engine running...let's try 1st gear first...one or both tires will spin.  You can grab one of the tires and the other one will spin...you can then let go of that tire and go to the other side and grab that tire and hold it, and the other tire will spin.  That is how a regular transmission works.  Now picture that the tire that is turning is on the ice and the other is on concrete.  An 8 pinion differential is going to sit there and spin all day.  The 10 pinion LS differential should start the tire on the concrete spinning along with the one on the ice, thus moving the horse from being stuck.  So...if you have the 10 pinion...when you grab one of the wheels...you should not be able to hold it from spinning (if it is working properly).  Remember, it is Limited Slip...not Posi-traction like in a Pontiac.  The sure way to find what you have...open the transmission and stop screwing around...then you can clean it, replace worn parts and have a horse that will last you another 50 years.  I'll wager 99% chance you have a 10 pinion LS differential.   Here is a video of the 10 pinion Limited Slip differential.

 

[tntatro 174]

Okay, that's good. I'm not 100% sure both were spinning but I thought they were. It sounded like both, then I looked to the right  and it was spinning, then to the left  and it was spinning and back to the right and not spinning. 

 

I  couldn't get the stuck broken bolt off but I removed both wheels and next time I get a chance I'll pull the transmission. I'm also working on making a hub puller. The first attempt was not good.

Edited April 26, 2018 by tntatro

[tntatro 174]

I attempted another hub puller using a 2 ton hydraulic jack but still no luck on the Raider hub. I'm afraid the hub might break. I've reached the point where it's hard to pump the jack. The broken part in the picture was like that already.

[pfrederi 17,887]

Use you angle grinder cut a slot down through the hub almost to the axle (lengthwise).  Support it then hit the slot you made hard with a cold chisel a few times the hub will usually crack open

[tntatro 174]

I guess if I get to the point where the hub needs to be cut then I should at least crank the puller as hard as possible to see if something breaks or the hub comes off.

[meadowfield 2,595]

I've used the bottle jack with success a few times, I started with a 2 ton bottle jack like yours and the relief valve kicks in. I then went to a 6 ton and broke a threaded rod!!!

 

However last week it wasn't going to work, so I went back to basics.

 

A big disc was used to make sure all was spread equally across the bolts holes, then a traditional puller. Heat the hub in order to help, then tighten up and strike the end of the puller with a hammer.

 

Shock is the only way on some of them to break the bond, this tranny had been in a fire and left outside for 3 years so was never going to come apart easily...

 

[tntatro 174]

That tool must pay off in the long run by saving money on hub replacement and time fooling with them. Do you know if places rent out a puller like that? I only have two transmissions that I want to work on right now, or was that reasonably affordable to make?

[meadowfield 2,595]

The puller piece is out of a bearing puller set I bought for £20 - approx $25.

 

The plate is actually a hub adapter off one of my 4x4 tractors

[Stormin 9,981]

Just a point on the axle needle roller bearings. My C-121 had a lot of play on the left hand axle when I got it. And I mean a lot. When I stripped the trans down, I found the bearing had broken up and the needles had gone through the main ball bearing, wrecking that. Just a warning not to leave things to long.

[WHX?? 49,177]

3 minutes ago, Stormin said:

needles had gone through the main ball bearing

And that was probably before we could get those bearings again right Norm?

 

You can also make a puller out of a scrap hub as shown below. Ones with shot keyways are easy to come by and most members will send you one for shipping. Did you try candle wax or some kind of rust break in the set screw hole? if the seal is shot use the heat wrench. Some other good info on hub pulling in this thread as well as many other threads.

Pic courtesy of 953 nut.

 

That hub puller is BOSS Mark @meadowfield 

[Stormin 9,981]

2 hours ago, WHX17 said:

And that was probably before we could get those bearings again right Norm?

 Got it in one. Jim. I had to improvise. Cases bored out a touch to fit the metric bearings and sleeves turned up to fit the bearing inner bore and axle shaft.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Stormin

[tntatro 174]

I found a pricey hub puller that I might buy when I get time and money, maybe in July. It has a plate with 5 slots that I believe will fit the Wheel Horse hubs.I put an 8 speed transmission on the Raider 12 and want to take apart the original transmission to see if it has the limited slip differential. 

I noticed that shortly after running the 8 speed the gear oil got really foamy looking and opaque. The transmission was drained but had a small amount of very clean and clear oil in it. I used 80w/90 gear oil. Did I do something wrong or use the wrong oil? I also checked the C-160 I did last winter and the gear oil looks a little foamy and a coffee (with milk) color. I cant find the 90-140 anywhere but did see 85-140. I don't know what the numbers mean. The local Toro dealer said it has to be 90 and was going to sell me the 80/90 but was out and told me the 85-140 is way too thick. I'm sure the 4 speed transmission I did is foamy also but it doesn't have a dipstick to check it.

[stevasaurus 22,872]

The 80/90 is fine to use...you should be able to find it at Tractor Supply, Walmart, Auto Zone, Farm & Fleet, etc.  The milky color is water in your oil, that could be why you are getting foam.  Check your rubber boot around the shifter for holes or cracks.  These transmissions are also known to have a condensation issue.  You should drain out the milky oil, flush with some diesel and fill with the 80/90 or 90 if you can find it. 

[tntatro 174]

The last transmission I did was foamy a day after I put the fluid in. I just checked it today and it is clear again. It foams up after it is run for a little bit. The level was a little high on the dipstick though so I may have put a little too much in. It foamed enough to leak a little fluid out the hi/low shifter. The C160 may have got condensation because it was out in the weather for a little while. They all have new shifter boots. Maybe I should go for a different brand of gear oil. The one I used is Warren and the only one on the shelf at the parts store closest to my house.

[tntatro 174]

On 4/25/2018 at 1:43 PM, tntatro said:

I just tried the tree technique. The first time just one would spin, the second time both spun for a couple seconds then only one, the third time just one.

I guess I was wrong about both wheels spinning, this is an 8 pinion after all. I had to cut one hub off and drill the stuck bolt out of the other one. I was able to save one hub anyway.

I had bought two 10 pinion differentials off eBay but the seller never shipped them and refunded my money. I guess I'll still be looking.