trans oil

[Ron Krause 1]

need help! I have a 1973 model 1-0475 10 automatic. The tag on the side of trans says to use type A fluid but when I check the oil in it it is the 10w-30 oil cause it does not look pink like atf.  This oil was not change  in 30 years looks like new still. I  would like to change this spring. Someone let me know what to do. Ron Krause

[pfrederi 17,887]

Stick with what is in there.  Changing requires a complete flushing..is messy and uses a lot of fluid/oil.  They work just fine on either lubricant.

[SPINJIM 1,981]

If there is dino oil already in it, I like full synthetic (Mobile 1) 10w-30 for my two automatics.   Works a little better in cold weather.   No need to flush out the trans.  Just drain well and put in synthetic.    You might want to jack up the front of the tractor to get all of the oil to drain to the back of the trans.

    Jim

[oliver2-44 9,873]

When you say it looks new is that after it has just been run or sitting a while. Some crud can settle out fairly quickly. Give it a good run and warm up right before you change it to get the crud  mixed in the oil so it drains out. 

[953 nut 55,837]

        I agree, stick with the 10 W 30 and also give it a new NAPA 1410 filter. Chances are the filter is also 30 years old.

[JimmyJam 542]

  

TO 

[Sarge 3,463]

Before doing anything - give it the sniff test . Burnt ATF can turn pretty dark and look like engine oil - but the odor of the stuff never really changes and is quite distinct. Crack a new bottle if you're not familiar with the odor of ATF and compare before changing anything. Mixing the two can create problems and they do not get along well. There were some that were converted to engine oil if the original pump was replaced - but this involves flushing everything including cylinders, valves and lines so be wary.

Sarge

[JimmyJam 542]

@Sarge I added ATF fluid to my Sundstrand  about a year ago because thatz what I thought looked like it was in it. The manual calls for 10w-30. Not being 100% positive of what was in there then, Would you suggest doing a complete flush? With what? Kerosene?

[Sarge 3,463]

No, don't ever flush it with kerosene - use the oil it's being changed over to . If you're going to run 10W30, flush it with that. This requires draining all cylinders, lines and valves as well - as in remove the hoses/cylinders and get the oil out of them. The pump has to be ran in a few times and drained, filled and drained again including the filter. This is why you use what is in them already - you have to waste a lot of oil to remove the other type from the system. Nothing wrong with either ATF or engine oil in a hydrostatic system but they cannot be mixed, ever. Whenever you drain the transmission from the case plug you need to raise the front up a bit to insure it all drains out - including any sludge if the oil has been left in there too long, which is common. As I said , if there is unknown fluid in there or you don't absolutely know for sure - smell the stuff. If it's ATF it has a very unusual odor to it , if your not familiar - get a quart and give that a wiff - you'll understand the difference quickly. 1973 models could have had either ATF or 10W30 engine oil - you have to figure out what was originally in it or if it has been mixed by someone else, flush the entire system. Just a few minutes will create enough circulation to mix the old/new -then drain and repeat several times along with the filter.

 

No, it's not fun nor cheap - this is why there are owner's manuals on equipment , read it or suffer the consequences. Unless you know a machine's history and how to test the system then have someone that knows how to diagnose the fluid and what type - it's not something you want to guess at unless you like replacing a pump.

 

Sarge

[JimmyJam 542]

Thanks @Sarge!!!! My Sunstrand is on a 1968 Electro 12 that I purchased (not running) about a year ago from a guy that totally bastardized any repairs/maintenance to the machine. The hydro had no hoses and ports were plugged w/large hex bolts. I am going to purchase new hoses from Lowell @wheelhorseman. So at that point (probably prior) I am going to flush the entire system anyways. Would you recommend staying with ATF? The Service Bulletin was updated to read in BOLD type to replace with ATF Type "A" fluid only and to replace filter every year or 100 hours. Interesting.....

Edited February 25, 2018 by JimmyJam

[Sarge 3,463]

On the older style hydrogear - yes I'd stick with ATF , you'll need plenty of it too. Might be cheaper by the gallon or a case of 12qts...

Might be a good idea to post up pics and find the tag numbers on that trans pump - some were changed by dealers to the newer piston~piston style if the old hydrogear failed, which would use 10W30 instead. Hopefully they didn't destroy the holes putting those bolts in them or messed with the valves for the lift cylinder.

@pfrederi - opinion here ?

 

Sarge

[pfrederi 17,887]

21 minutes ago, Sarge said:

On the older style hydrogear - yes I'd stick with ATF , you'll need plenty of it too. Might be cheaper by the gallon or a case of 12qts...

Might be a good idea to post up pics and find the tag numbers on that trans pump - some were changed by dealers to the newer piston~piston style if the old hydrogear failed, which would use 10W30 instead. Hopefully they didn't destroy the holes putting those bolts in them or messed with the valves for the lift cylinder.

@pfrederi - opinion here ?

 

Sarge

The manual is quite specific in warning about operating a system that was set up for hydro lift with out having the lift control valve an cylinder hooked up.  If you are going to operate a hydro that had the lift  with out it being installed you have to switch the  charge pump relief and implement relief valves back to a non lift position and remove the lift relief spring.  Not doing this will result in high pressurize that will damage the system

Edited February 25, 2018 by pfrederi

[Sarge 3,463]

He's got hoses coming from Lowell to put the lift back in service so that should be covered - if there is no damage done already...

 

Sarge

[953 nut 55,837]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

If you are going to operate a hydro that had the lift  with out it being installed you have to switch the  charge pump relief and implement relief valves back to a non lift position and remove the lift relief spring.

 

6 minutes ago, Sarge said:

He's got hoses coming from Lowell to put the lift back in service so that should be covered - if there is no damage done already...

 

Sarge

That seem to be the problem, he has no idea of what was done by the PO. The relief valves will need to be evaluated. Also, if "Bolts" were run into the hose fitting threads the new hoses probably will not seal.

[pfrederi 17,887]

Hopefully the PO use 1/2" NF fine bolts in the hose ports and didn't run them into deep.. Actually the fittings were SAE#5 ORB which use straight threads 1/2  20 tpi

 

Are we sure we have a hydro gear here.  As Sarge pointed out many were swapped out as WH considered Hydro gears to be "Unserviceable" repair by replacement.

 

If the end of the hydro motor looks a bit like a figure 8 it is a hydro gear

Edited February 25, 2018 by pfrederi

[953 nut 55,837]

9 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Are we sure we have a hydro gear here.

              @Ron Krause it seem that we have a lot of follow up information needed to be sure we give you accurate answers.

[Ron Krause 1]

Thanks guys but my tractor has a sundstrand and it has no hoses for any lift it's just a reg trans i am sure on the dipstick it is reg oil so I think I'll drain and change with 10w-30 and change filter Ron

[Sarge 3,463]

The above replies were for @JimmyJam - threads can get polluted by others coming in and asking questions about their tractor that may be completely different . Unless you scan the original post author and stick to that we all get lost in these threads. It happens...

 

Sarge

[953 nut 55,837]

Thanks @Sarge, you are correct, I lost track of the second posting getting involved. No wonder I wasn't sure we were giving correct information.

It is easy enough to confuse me without trying.   

[JimmyJam 542]

Sorry guys! ...that I polluted the original post, I should have made my own post. I just thought that..."While we are on that subject...."

 

Here's my original pump tag. I also have an complete replacement transmission from Joe's Outdoor (he claims it was working & use to be a vendor here on RS) ++ I have another one on a "No-Name 12" parts tractor. Thoughts????

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by JimmyJam

[JimmyJam 542]

Making a new post as not to confuse! Sorry!

[Sarge 3,463]

The '68 would have had the hydrogear in it , which is what the 90-2046 pump is listed as and it's also described on the tag. Should use ATF originally, but if it was flushed at one time it may have been changed over to engine oil . Again, unknown history machines can be a nightmare trying to diagnose what oil is in them and many end up getting mixed varieties. Someone put Hy-trans in my 1277 at one time and it destroyed the pump's piston block/piston retaining ring - the whole thing basically exploded internally. Prior to that , the pump was strong as an ox...lesson learned. That tractor still has the older hydrogear from a '66 876 model in it - works perfectly and still runs ATF. In my opinion, the ATF is the best choice for the older hydrogear but it must be changed yearly and more often than that if worked really hard - oil is cheap.

 

Sarge