I want to install a Tiller & Dozer blade at the same time>

[oliver2-44 9,623]

I have a large dirt leveling & shaping project coming up down the road.  Seat time!

I need to be able to loosen up high areas to push them around to level and improve drainage of a 100 ft x 150 ft back yard.  The soil is sandy/clay granite gravel. It has enough clay in it to be very hard when very dry, but will dig fairly easily when damp. 

 

So I'm starting to think about how to install a tiller and dozer blade on my C-160 at the same time. 

I wish I could even mount the Tiller and a Center Mount Grader Blade at the same time.

 But I suspect the blade would hit the front wheels when angled since it would be mounted forward of its normal position, or it would hit the front tiller pulley?

One idea I'm thinking of essentially making a double rear axle hitch, one in front of the other. The tiller would mount in the rear mount under the axle in the normal positionn so the pulleys would be in the correct location so the belt length would not change.  The dozer blade wound mount in the forward mount, and its lift link would have to be a custom length. I'm thinking I need to make some type of support bracket from each side of the front mount that would mount to the frame.  The forward mount would also have to be spaced forward enough so the end of the dozer blade arms  would not hit the tiller cross bar in the rear hitch mount.The normal hitch locks probable would not work, so I'm thinking a locking bar would be bolted on to lock both implements in place.  

 

The other idea would be one hitch directly below the other in the normal axle position. It would also have to have some type of brace to the forward frame so as to not put a twisting force on the axle.  I  haven't figured out if there's enough ground clearance to do this type of arrangement.

 

The front dozer blade would be lifted by the existing hydraulic lift and the rear tiller would be lifted by a 2nd rear hydraulic cylinder.  Only one implement would be in use at one time.

 

I'm thinking I will make a wood mock up of both ideas to work out some basic details before I start cutting & welding.

 

Has anyone tried this?  I would like to learn what worked and what didn't from others. if you haven't tried it, I still like to hear your thoughts on what might work, or potential  problems that I haven't thought of yet.

Thanks  

 

So many projects, got to find a way to make them fun!

[Thisguyisnew 114]

I think if you were somehow succesful in mounting both you'd still have clearance issues. There is also the matter of having still just one lift cylinder connection.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Thisguyisnew

[wallfish 16,955]

Sounds to me like you have the perfect scenario for the concept of a tractor for every attachment. Two C160s should be nice! Or, even go with a smaller engine tractor for the dozer blade.

If hell bent on both for one tractor, maybe attaching a modified blade frame to the mid Tach A Matic ? 

Edited February 13, 2018 by wallfish

[WVHillbilly520H 10,373]

The xi series rear axle bracket is basically what you're talking about, but I'm still not sure it would work as you're wanting, Jeff.

[953 nut 54,943]

I have done a similar project but used a moldboard plow to loosen the soil then pushed it with a blade.. I didn't have them on the same tractor, but if you added a couple of chains to the mix you could chain up the one not being used and then alternate.

.

[R. L. Addison 299]

If you add the second valve in the stack, both would work independently, & need no chains for either. 

 

I would look for a front mount blade, (vertical shaft?, some of the older ones?, or custom?, several ways to go,) and maybe just a little jua kali engineering might get just what you want.

[Forest Road 594]

You could do a winch to raise the tiller. Mounting the plow forward 3-6” should

be ok. Might need to weld a new lift point onto plow. 

 

Personally I’d get another horse. 

[BOB ELLISON 2,980]

If you had one of these type of blades.

I got this with the 520h and the guy said he used it to plow snow. So I did connect it to the front and it worked like a champ.i even posted it here to see if anyone ever seen this type setup. but I sold the 520h and kept this very heavy blade. But the one thing that you would have to overcome is the lift for both on the cylinder. You would have to put a winch on front for the blade and use the tractor cylinder to lift the tiller. To bad your so far away or I'd sell it to ya

[oliver2-44 9,623]

I've already added the 2nd hydraulic valve And have a cylinder awaiting a rear mount. So the lifting part is covered. 

@WVHillbilly520H Thanks for the info on the XI series hitch. Is it the same width as a 3,4,5 and C series hitch. If so, maybe I could use one of them and not have to reinvent the wheel, or am I missing something?

while I like the 2nd tractor idea, I already have a non runner in the shed that needs major life support.      WH aren't the most plentiful around here. 

[WVHillbilly520H 10,373]

@oliver2-44, yes I believe the xi hitch is the same width but a bit pricey $130 (shipped)new, and hard to find used, @BOB ELLISON, that front blade you have looks to be originally from a PowerKing as that was my first attempt on my Kioti before I went 4way hydraulic, Jeff.

Edited February 14, 2018 by WVHillbilly520H

[Sarge 3,463]

I've considered doing similar and even splitting the rock shaft system in half so another cylinder could be used on the right side to mirror how the left side is built for hydraulic lifts. That would separate the front and rear attachments but require some heavy solid stock and machining a coupling to hold the two halves together in the hood stand. After a lot of consideration, measurements and like - it's just not worth that much work for what it yields. Doing it this way would give it front/rear separation but the weak design of the hood stand would have to be beefed up to hold the implement weight/force during travel and using either the front or rear attachment. I wanted it for two blades, one front , one rear for dirt and snow work. Using a rear cylinder is a better setup along with a dual spool valve but you're limited at what volume the hydro pump puts out somewhat.

 

From your description, your weak point is going to become the frame rails themselves and transmission mounting plate. Maybe if the frame was fully boxed which limits it's attachment uses would work but you'd have to tear it down completely to do it right. Me ? I ended up with a D-180 - a C-195 would be even better but none of them can beat a D for it's frame strength from what WH built . What you're describing really needs a heavier tractor to handle that weight/stress - a D will do the job but has it's weak points like the others.

 

Sarge

[c-series don 8,649]

I often thought about this myself, I used to till the hard ground, switch attachments and put the plow on to move the material around. I have found that the easiest way to solve this is to just have a tractor for each implement. This way you can just jump from one tractor to another!!! 

[Sarge 3,463]

From your description of work needed, might want to consider a rear box blade with ripper teeth - they are designed for what you need and it's only 1 attachment, a decently built heavy one should work fine.

 

Sarge

Edited February 15, 2018 by Sarge
grammar

[c-series don 8,649]

I have that box blade with the ripper teeth brand new. It's made by Brinly takes the Brinly hitch. I always think I'm going to take it to a show on one of my show tractors but after owning it for more than ten years and not doing that I probably would sell it. I can't believe I just said I would sell something!!! 

[oliver2-44 9,623]

@c-series don I'd appreciate if you could post a deli tires of the box blade with a tape measure in them for reference. I have a Sears rear blade  that came with a non runner WH. I'd like to compare to see if it would be easy to make into a box bladei

[WVHillbilly520H 10,373]

20 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

@c-series don I'd appreciate if you could post a deli tires of the box blade with a tape measure in them for reference. I have a Sears rear blade  that came with a non runner WH. I'd like to compare to see if it would be easy to make into a box bladei

I have the agri-fab(last 2) version it's 42" but Sears and Northern Tool sell both brands Brinly(first 2) and Agri-fab here's a couple pics from their site, anyways with enough weight it does seem to OK, Jeff.

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,290]

My son purchased the brinly from Northern and it really works well. He used it to level and clear his back yard which was full of fist size rocks partially buried in the soil. 

[c-series don 8,649]

The first picture is the exact one that I have, if you need further dementions I can get them to you.

[WVHillbilly520H 10,373]

Edited February 17, 2018 by WVHillbilly520H

[Sarge 3,463]

I've seen those - not a very heavy duty unit but with some mods ....or build your own.

 

Sarge

[oliver2-44 9,623]

Thanks for all the great comments. Gives me lots to think about. I'm going to did the Sears rear blade out and thinks out making it a box blade with rippers

I also have one other idea that y'all can help me out with. Y'all mentioning the rippers reminded me of a guy who had made a set of pivoting teeth on the back side of a large bulldozed blade. When he was backing up he would back drag with the blade. Just above the ground and the teeth would dig in and rip. When he pushed forward the teeth pivoted up and just slid along. I thing the teeth were pivoting on a large round bar mounted on the back of the blade.  No lost work time....pushing dirt forward and ripping backing up  If I could make that work I could use one tractor and one implement for the job

Edited March 8, 2018 by oliver2-44

[Sarge 3,463]

If you ask around at some of the older welding shops they will have worn out cutting edges taken off heavy equipment - I have one that is 5' long for the price of it's scrap from a local welder. 1" thick, tapered AR400 cutting edge - cannot really be welded on much without a lot of preheat but it can be bolted to a sub frame - that will be the center grader blade for the D this summer if I can get the time. You can do the same with box blade designs - but go look at the heavier tractor mounted 3pt types - it's fairly easy to build one to hang off the rear hitch or make it a tow type. The D's front blade was rebuilt using a piece of pre-beveled 1055 high carbon off Ebay - they are selling different lengths/thicknesses now pretty cheap. I doubt it's all that high of quality, but beats what those Brinly , Agri Fab and others are made from including WH's own cutting bars, most are just plain steel. Makes a huge difference in how effectively it cuts the ground - mine is easily removing frozen gravel off our parking lot pretty badly with just the weight of the blade, no down pressure.

 

Check out the box blade designs on modern compact tractors in Cat1 & Cat2 sizes, there is some really interesting designs and engineering in those now offered to older units - they work excellent and a buddy just got one for his big Kubota. I'll probably at least somewhat copy that one for a couple of rear box scrapers this summer, need one around here badly for leveling the ground.

 

Sarge

[WVHillbilly520H 10,373]

@oliver2-44, I use my Agri-fab brand box blade with my 520H and even with the hydraulic lift it could be at times a bit hard to lift especially with the weight bar I added, I used it to repair my parents 1/4 mile long dirt/gravel driveway several times over the past few years and it has held up just fine on severely compacted soils, the ripper teeth (1/4")can be flipped over out of the way while working it without tools, the main parts are made from 3/16" thick cold rolled steel and has worn down some on the end plates and blade itself but the beauty of it is that it can be all reversed/flipped over after it has worn too far or simply add new material/flat bar and start over, and if you are only using it occasionally should last you many years, with Sarge's idea IMHO it would be too heavy for the C160/520H size tractor on our style clevis hitch, but fine for the D series or sub compact size tractor with actual 3pt hitch where it's attached to the frame vs the trans hitch pin, even the 5' rear scraper blade on the Kioti and eMax will literally pull the tractors side ways when full of dirt/gravel or wet heavy snow it's to easy to over load these little tractors there's a reason impelements are sized accordingly, Jeff.

[Sarge 3,463]

That is a good point and I do tend to build things a bit on the heavy side - but I hate repairing poor quality steel parts used on some of the attachments. WH didn't even use decent steel on their cutting edges for blades/blowers/scrapers which really surprised me given how well they built every thing else they sold.

Now, that said - both the 1277 and C-160 can pick up/carry my disk when loaded with concrete blocks or iron. It has been weighted up to 300lbs to help it cut better in tough soil conditions but I have broken cables that were less than perfect - Lowell fixed that easy enough and his haven't failed yet. My rear blade has a very heavy piece of cutting edge the neighbor's welding shop installed on it since it had to be plasma cut , that blade bare is 150lbs now and will scrape ice/rock like nothing.

 

The one constant failure point on the long frame standard tractors is always the frame to transmission mounting plate and I've broken plenty of them. I do have the ability/tools/equipment to repair it , so heavy implement use is not a problem for what I do here - I should always add that disclaimer when giving out ideas, lol...sorry.

 

Some of the box scrapers are heavier than others and there is always the tow behind models designed for heavier ATV's - which have about the same capability as our tractors. The lighter duty box units from Brinly and Agri-Fab are really designed for lawn tractors or smaller garden tractors - a solid C-160 can destroy them and that was the reason for the extra heavy cutting edge on my rear blade when the original rolled steel just bent in places and wore out quickly - it was build with only 3/16" light duty steel, nothing hardened at all. The heavier built tow behind box blades cost more due to the materials used - a C-160 could easily handle it but you can hit a point where traction is going to become the limiting factor - that's a good thing to prevent damage to your frame. Weight those tires too much or ram it , now you're risking a frame plate breakage - it does sort of act like a fuse. It would be a good idea given how hard you are pushing the tractor to search for frame reinforcement threads - there are several good ways to prevent too much stress to the transmission mounting plate and some are really easy to install with no welding involved. My 1277 is parked again and out of service due to the plate shattering - it will get a new and heavier one made from better steel versus the stamped profile metal originally used on it. That even has a limit and you can rip the threads out of the cast iron trans case - so keep it to a sane level or find a much bigger piece of equipment like a sub/mid compact tractor.

 

These things given their size will do an amazing amount of work - if you are patient and respect it's size and capability. Many don't and have to repair them, guilty as charged here and I should have invested in something much larger years ago but I enjoy working on the Horse instead.

 

Sarge