Starter Spin Question

[Zeek 2,286]

I got my 552 out today and found that the starter just spins and will not engage the flywheel. The battery is fully charged. One other thing associated with I noticed was the volt gauge stays "on." It used to only read volts when the key was turned on.

 

This particular tractor uses the switch to turn it on and push button to start it. I'm thinking my ignition switch may have gone bad. Any ideas?? Thanks!

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Zeek

[Achto 27,933]

Not sure why you would see any thing on the gauge when the switch is off.

 

As for the starter - 1. If your voltage is low it may not be spinning fast enough to engage the starter drive.

                              2. If your battery voltage is good then the drive may be bad on the starter or it is dry and does not engage. If you need to lube the starter drive, I prefer to use dry graphite powder. Oil, especially on a Kohler Bendix starter can wreck the drive. One other possibility, is there any way water may have got in by the starter causing the drive to freeze?

Edited February 13, 2018 by Achto

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,145]

Do you have a voltmeter or an ammeter? I suspect you have an ammeter.

The only wire on the ignition switch is the one that grounds the ignition to shut the engine off.

Wiring diagram here - click on the picture and then the small pictures once you get there and they will enlarge.

Garry

[Zeek 2,286]

5 hours ago, Achto said:

Not sure why you would see any thing on the gauge when the switch is off.

 

As for the starter - 1. If your voltage is low it may not be spinning fast enough to engage the starter drive.

                              2. If your battery voltage is good then the drive may be bad on the starter or it is dry and does not engage. If you need to lube the starter drive, I prefer to use dry graphite powder. Oil, especially on a Kohler Bendix starter can wreck the drive. One other possibility, is there any way water may have got in by the starter causing the drive to freeze?

 

1. I did a jump directly from the battery (which is newer) to the starter terminal. It spins very fast, just won't move forward. I think voltage is good.

2. It is never in the weather except for the June show. I am not familiar with these starters, so I suppose I'll see if someone here has some picture of taking one apart. I'll check for lubrication.

 

5 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

Do you have a voltmeter or an ammeter? I suspect you have an ammeter.

The only wire on the ignition switch is the one that grounds the ignition to shut the engine off.

Wiring diagram here - click on the picture and then the small pictures once you get there and they will enlarge.

Garry

 

Ok, I'll check.  I thinking I may have a two-fold problem . . . the switch not turning off all the way and the starter itself.

[WHX?? 49,515]

Easier to pull the shroud off to check the business end of the starter Zeek?

[oldredrider 2,553]

Is your battery polarity correct? If not, your starter may be spinning backwards.

[wallfish 17,114]

Like Gary wrote, the only thing that particular key switch does on that tractor is ground and un-ground the coil for shutting down and running the engine.

Pull the starter off and take a good look at the bendix gear. There should also be a spring which contacts the gear to provide just a little resistance so when the starter motor spins, the gear will ride up the worm gear grooves and engage the flywheel. From your description it sounds as though the gear is just spinning in place and not moving out to engage the flywheel. If the spring is there and fully intact, then it may just need to be cleaned and lubed. As advised, use a dry lubricant like graphite.

This is not a pic your exact starter but you can see the spring. If yours has a plastic cover, remove it for inspection and/or cleaning.

[AMC RULES 37,141]

 Might be time Zeek...

to let that one go too.  

[stevebo-(Moderator) 8,364]

50% of the time when this type of thing happens it is due to a bad ground or dirty connections. Then again I am no good at electrical issues....

[squonk 41,650]

I think you need a new switch and a bendix cleaning

[ACman 7,628]

2 hours ago, AMC RULES said:

 Might be time Zeek...

to let that one go too.  

 

....  ! Hopefully you can get it figured out before the Big Show!

 

                   And this little girl has her eye on it too .... 

 

She’s already tried working out a deal with Zeek’s dog .

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by ACman

[Daddy Don 907]

Had the same problem Bendix cleaning fixed it.

[Zeek 2,286]

Ha, great replies guys  

 

Sounds like the next step it to check the gear like few said. The and switch ground could be my combined issue. 

We are leaving for the Lebanon Valley show Thursday morning, so that will likely have to wait until we get back  Guess I'll have to throw the old pull-start back on for now.

Can't wait to get out of the house for something different for a few days  Can't wait until the June show . . . 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Zeek

[953 nut 56,204]

38 minutes ago, Zeek said:

leaving for the Lebanon Valley show Thursday morning,

                                                        

[ebinmaine 68,901]

I'll be here following along to see what the solution is. .... and I like pics. ...

[formariz 11,988]

Had that problem before and it occasionally happens with some.It happens more with tractors that sit for a while. Removing starter disassembling Bendix and cleaning all old dry oily residue, and then lubricating with graphite always fixed the problem. I found that any other lubricant eventually dries out and creates that problem.

[Zeek 2,286]

Well, I got to tear this apart today once we got back from the Lebanon Valley show where some POS backed into my new truck and didn't leave any information   I don't want to get off topic with that, but we got too many people that just worthless 

Anyway, the starter and Bendix works fine, I found that the gear on the flywheel is what is spinning. I can't find where a screw or whatever is missing from the flywheel. I am not sure what actually attaches the gear to the flywheel. I suppose I could tack weld it, but it does not appear that is what kept it from spinning to begin with. It actually spins very freely.  Any ideas 

 

The gear spinning on the flywheel

 

Back of flywheel

 

None of these holes have threads - if you look into the holes while moving the teeth, there is nothing to engage the teeth ring.

 

 

 

[pfrederi 18,017]

Ring Gears on tractor flywheels are a shrink fit.  Heat the thing in an oven press it onto the flywheel.  I would assume it is the same here.  Why it started spinning is a mystery. I assume it started to slip and wore itself larger or ground down the flywheel.  I think the drilled holes (at least some of them) were part of balancing the flywheel.  Are there any cracks in the ring gear???  Especially from the bottom of a valley.

 

Since replacement flywheel wheels are not on every street corner I would think a few evenly spaced tack welds would work  Try to keep balance by spacing and size of tacks...

[wallfish 17,114]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

Are there any cracks in the ring gear??? 

 Interesting if it isn't cracked, never ran across that before. strange! On the bright side, your starter is good!

If you need to replace the ring gear, like pfrederi wrote, heat the new ring gear to expand it and freeze the flywheel to shrink it.

I have a flywheel from a 7hp teccy snowblower engine which you can have if you need it and the ring gear is the same. Magnets probably aren't the same. Guess we could count the teeth if necessary but I'll check to see if that number matches. The engines are deep in a storage area of the shed but they can be pulled out.

Found this stray flywheel on the shelf but the numbers are 3 F 5018 and the ring gear is held on by 3 screws, but think it could work. Unfortunately some of the fins are broke.

 

 

 

[Zeek 2,286]

My ring gear is in really good shape. Looks like I'm going to have to thread a hole or two like one you have pictured above or tack it a few times like pfrederi said.

[squonk 41,650]

I would take it to a machine shop have it all magnafluxed first. Maybe they can even tack it on and balance it or send you somewhere that does this type of work. A ring gear coming loose is strange.

[Zeek 2,286]

3 hours ago, squonk said:

I would take it to a machine shop have it all magnafluxed first. Maybe they can even tack it on and balance it or send you somewhere that does this type of work. A ring gear coming loose is strange.

 

I'm off today, so I'm going to take a closer look at it and make sure I don't have a crack somewhere that caused it to loosen up.

[Zeek 2,286]

Alrighty, here's the verdict . . .

 

Truck:

$590 to fix the bumper the POS backed in to  (Sorry off topic )

 

Starter:

I literally looked at the cleaned up gear with a magnifying glass. No cracks or defects that I could see. I'm thinking with the starter gear blasting on it, a failure should appear pretty quickly. 

 

Since the gear ring and flywheel are dis-similar metals, I could not tack weld or braze them together (at least not with my skill or welders). So I hit the steel ring gear with the MIG welder at the 12/3/6/9 o'clock positions on both sides. Just enough to change the edge, not lay bead weight. This created enough grip to keep it affixed to the flywheel. I ran it through some testing before I reinstalled the engine shroud and it seems like it worked. 

 

If it ends up failing at some point, I'll repost it here.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Zeek

[R. L. Addison 299]

If it fails again, drill 2 holes @ 180 degrees and tap for set screws or small solid pins. That has cured many ailments in the past for me. Roll pins would work, but I prefer swedging them in. Ron