1969 Raider 12 axle slippage

[Ballbuster 17]

He's a 1969 Wheel Horse Raider 12 with the 8 speed (hi/lo) tranny and he will soon be 50 years old.  I've owned him (I call him Thumper) for just over 10 years now and during that time he's been through hell with me.  Lots of stories about him... like when the tongue of my trailer let loose while towing him on a county road and catapulted him ten feet into the air (I kid you not... I watched him disappear upwards out of view in my rear view mirror) and he landed about twenty feet back in a cornfield... landing on his top side.  His sheet metal (hood, seat, seat pan, deck lift, console, steering wheel) were all crushed and mangled.  His front tie rods were broken and fuel was pouring out the cap.  I managed to get him righted back on his wheels (about herniated myself!) ... but I couldn't push him at all in the soft tilled soil.  I decided to try to start him.  I literally bumped his starter with the key and within a second he came to life purring like a kitten!   I put him in reverse and got him out of the field and onto a trailer by kicking his front tires to steer him.  Yeah... I love my old tractor.  I've since scavenged sheet metal parts off of other WH tractors and totally rebuilt him to his former studliness, minus all the factory WH stickers.  That was over eight years ago.

 

My current issue with him is that when I'm plowing snow and get some serious weight in front of the blade he stops pushing and I can feel and see his rear tires just kind of "bumping" or lurching like the gears in the tranny are turning but axles are not quite meshing or are "popping" over each other.  This happens in low gear particularly, but I also had it happen in 1st gear Hi range too.  The one constant is putting a heavy load on him.  I thought possibly the snap rings had come off one of the axle stubs.  So I pulled the tranny, split it and took the diff apart... but I didn't see anything out of order.  Both Snap rings were on the axle ends and in good shape, no chewed up splines and the gears were all in decent shape (for being almost 50 years old).  What I did notice was there appeared to be a lot of axle play within the bushings on the aluminum diff halves and the axles.  It occurred to me maybe this play was allowing the axles to jump spyder gears?  Then I read a couple threads here on the round spring clamp that holds the spyder gears in place losing its "springiness" and possibly allowing excessive movement in the axle and spyder gears to occur. 

 

So, after all of the above, is there a source for new replacement bushings for both my rear axles... or are these even replaceable?  They appear to be a press fit.  I thought I might be able to heat the aluminum and press the old bushing out with my arbor press.  However, if the replacement bushings aren't available, then I guess there is no need to even press the old ones out.   

 

Also, is there a source for purchasing a new  circular spring that sits inside the spyder gears of the diff?   If not, has anyone had any luck reheating them, spreading them a little then harding them again?  My diff has ten total spyder gears in it.  I think it is a 5071 tranny.

 

Looking inside, I also noticed my hi/lo fork is beginning to be eaten by a gear so I guess I need to replace the hi/lo shift fork while I'm in there too, but frankly, I'm reluctant to buy a $55 part if the old boy's tranny is getting really near the end of the road.

 

Any info and guidance you guys have on this issue is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

 

Norm

[953 nut 55,860]

4 hours ago, Ballbuster said:

I can feel and see his rear tires just kind of "bumping" or lurching like the gears in the tranny are turning but axles are not quite meshing

      Thanks for the interesting back story on your Raider. It sounds like one of the keys between an axle and hub may have sheared.

[pfrederi 17,893]

If all the axle keys and input keys are good you could consider replacing the differential with an 8 pinion one.

[Racinbob 11,237]

2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

      Thanks for the interesting back story on your Raider. It sounds like one of the keys between an axle and hub may have sheared.

With one of the hub keys sheared the limited slip is trying to do it's job which is causing the symptoms you are having.

3 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

If all the axle keys and input keys are good you could consider replacing the differential with an 8 pinion one.

Not a bad idea at all. Check out service bulletin #252 for details.

 

[daveoman1966 3,762]

I have a NOS shift fork # 48 (with pin #49) part # 3503.  Also have a complete 10-pinion differential, w/out axles.  

send an email to me for further info. 

my email is:

daveoman@windstream.net

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by daveoman1966

[Achto 27,818]

If you would wish to rebuild your whole tranny, here is a link for a rebuild kit.https://www.wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/transmissions.html#!/Kit-4-with-2-1533-&-2-7202-Bearings/p/85721191/category=23548039

He also has other sets that are a little less complete.

[Ballbuster 17]

Thanks for all the quick replies.

 

Axle keys and hubs are all good.  I spent time pulling the hubs when I first bought him.  Cleaned the axles, hubs and installed new keys in the axles.  They are still good.

 

Yes, that diagram appears to be same as the transmission I have disassembled.

 

That "Wheel Horse Parts and More" link appears to be a great site for getting the parts you would need for rebuilding a transmission... a one stop shop.  I'll save that link for the future. Thank you much for that link.

 

I've installed new seals on all the tranny shafts before.  I will probably install all new shaft seals again since I have it broken down and apart.  As far as I can tell, all the bearings are in serviceable condition and don't warrant replacement or the costs associated with replacing them.

 

I am very interested in hearing more about swapping to the 8 pinion tranny.  I've read it was a more durable design (although, sitting here,  I don't know the reason why).  Possibly it doesn't have the large round spring to weaken and allow the spyder gears to flex?  

 

What Wheel Horse models had the 8 pinion tranny?

 

Also, where do i find the Wheel Horse Service Bulletin #252? 

 

Those two axle bushings are not replaceable or are not available for purchase anywhere?  I didn't see them in the tranny rebuild kit.

 

My last thought being, IF that round spring weakening is why I am experiencing the axle slippage, why not get ahold of another round spring and insert it inside the original to re-inforce the tension and bring it back to life?  I'm sure i would have to trim it a little to be able to compress it and insert inside the old one, but that thought came to me last night while I slept.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts on my issue, gentlemen.

 

Norm

 

 

 

 

[pfrederi 17,893]

You can download SB-252 here

 

 

 

There isn't much clearance between the existing spring and the snap ring ears on the axle ends  a second spring might rub.

[Ballbuster 17]

pfrederi... you make an excellent point on the axle snap ring clearance, thanks.  A second spring inside might cause or at least accelerate failure of the snap ring and then I'd have it apart on my bench again.   I'll have to look at that closely (when I get out to the garage again).  Thanks for the Service Bulletin #252 link too. 

 

Mucho gracious!

 

Norm

[Ballbuster 17]

Are these 10 to 8 pinion conversion kits (required gears) available for sale on the market today? 

 

The tranny is the only issue I currently have with Thumper.  His K301 still runs strong and my 42" deck is in excellent condition.  I blasted the inside of the mower deck a few years ago and then applied three coats of POR-5 hi-gloss.  The POR-15 coating has held up very well.  There is still a lot of life in the tractor if I can correct the tranny issue.

[stevasaurus 22,878]

Hello...1st off...if your transmission is slipping and that spring is not broke, there is nothing slipping in that rear end.  Those pinions are not turning when you are going in a straight line.  Only the differential bull gear is turning...the axle and axle gears would be in essence locked.  Those pinions only allow one of the axles to turn at a different speed when turning the horse.  The kind of slippage you are talking about, almost, has to be wood ruff keys either in one of the axles or the other...your input pulley or your engine pulley.  If your axle gears are OK, it, almost, has to be wood ruff keys.

   Also, there is probably nothing wrong with your differential end plates.  The axles are supposed to be very loose in those plates.  If that bushing is snug in the #1533 bearing, or plates are just fine.  That bushing rides on/in the #1533 ball bearing.  That bearing carries the whole differential in that bearing.  The axle uses the axle gear on one end and the out axle bearing on the other to hold it in place.  Can you give us some pictures to verify what I am telling you...or check out this video...or both. 

 

 

One other thing...your transmission is a #5060.  The #5060 had aluminum end plates on the differential.  The #5071 came with steel end plates...unless someone has been in there and changed them out since your horse was new...or that is not your original transmission.  You might want to check your serial number...you just may have a 1968 Raider.  1968 was 1-6231.  Late 1968 and 1969 is 1-6241...(steel plates) 

[stevasaurus 22,878]

OK...one more thing.  You made it sound like neither tire was turning when this happened.  If that is not the case and one of the rear tires was turning while the other one was not, your spinning tire was slipping on ice and the spring in your 10 pinion differential is just weak.  This is what an 8 pinion differential does...you only have one drive wheel.  The 10 pinion gives you 2 drive wheels when one of them is slipping. 

   If neither of your wheels were turning, then what I said way above applies.

[Ballbuster 17]

Thanks much, stevasaurus.  Good info! 

 

I was going straight, neither of my tires were spinning and the diff end plates are made of aluminum on him.  I was checking my Wheel Horse Model listing awhile ago and re-checked my data plate and he is a '68, model #1-6231, not a '69 model.  Just makes him a little more older and special to me. 

 

I will go ahead and purchase a new hi/lo yoke shaft and start checking woodruff keys on my shafts.

 

Thanks much to yoose again.

 

Norm. 

[stevasaurus 22,878]

That sounds good Norm...I just couldn't let you go buying all kinds of stuff and still not fix the problem.  Keep us informed please.  Would still like to know what you find.  If you post pictures of suspect parts, we can take a look and tell you what we think. 

[Achto 27,818]

23 hours ago, Ballbuster said:

I was going straight, neither of my tires were spinning

 

@Ballbuster I've read through this whole post and have come up with one question. Are you sure that you're not just dealing with a drive belt that is slipping? (Bad belt or weak tension spring)

 

With the inspections that you have described, I would have thought that a bad key or hub would have been very noticeable.

 

If your tranny was so messed up that it would not move, I would have thought you would hear some bad noises coming from it when the slipping occurs.

 

Just my

Edited January 30, 2018 by Achto

[Ballbuster 17]

Update:  I purchased the shift fork from daveoman1966 today (thank you, Dave!).  I ordered a new set of oil seals for the axles, brake and input shaft from the link provided above (by Achto) and picked up four more new hub set-bolts (for the axle hubs), two spare keys for the axles and five new 3/8" nyloc nuts for reassembling the diff.  I will pull the drive belt shield and inspect the drive belt (which is about four years old as I recall) and check out my crankshaft key.  I'm sure it probably wasn't, but when I first replaced the drive belt on him after I bought him, I could swear it was the original belt.  Old, dried out and chunked up, but still pulling, barely.

 

I pulled the rear tires and re-checked my axle hubs... and sure enough, they were a little lose.  How loose?  I could get the hub to move maybe a 1/16th of an inch on the right axle and the left axle a little less.  Any movement at all is too much.  I recalled that the key way on the right side hub had a little "wallowing" inside the key slot when I had reassembled the hubs and tires after I had put new oil seals in it a while back.  I had crunched down on the hub set-bolt, but obviously there was too much play in the hub key way.  I have ONE spare hub that I will replace that one with.  I'm going to drill and tap a couple more holes in each of the hubs (probably at the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions) in order to lock the hubs down tighter and hopefully keep them locked down.  

 

Honestly, pushing snow is about as brutal of work as I've subjected Thumper to.  Nowadays, he occasionally pulls a 42" mower through the grass.  Four years prior he mowed about two acres every week for several years.  Now, I only I mow with him maybe three or four times a year in the last three or four years just to exercise him and run fresh fuel through the carb and, of course,  just because I still enjoy operating the old pig.  He still leaves the lawn looking like a golf course. The rest of his time.... he just spends sitting in my garage, drinking beers and listening to the radio.  What a life.   Other than that nasty episode of him flying through the air and crashing down to earth hard on his bonnet... he's led a pretty pampered life since he has been in my care for the last ten+ years.

 

Thanks to everyone for the thoughts and ideas, gentlemen.

 

Norm

 

[Ballbuster 17]

Don't know if this is the proper place within the forum, but I thought I would share some of the other "improvements" I have made to Thumper too.  Being an old tractor, his tie rods were loose (mine are too, though).  After the trailer crash I had installed another set of tie rods on him from one of the tractor salvages I had bought to replace sheet metal.  The spindles were still worn and loose on the wheels, though. 

 

About four years ago now, I was walking around a local metal salvage yard I frequent, just looking at what treasures there were to find... and I suddenly see a newer, complete Wheel Horse tractor, complete with a 42 inch deck, lying on its side.  It had a hydro trans in it and was a late 70s model I believe, with the newer Kohler engine (versus the K301).  It appeared to be in really good shape sheet metal wise.  Original paint, decals, tires, rims and all.  I remember my first thought was something like "what kind of idiot would dump an entire Wheel Horse tractor off at the metal junkyard?"  I kept on walking around looking for other treasures.  Then it occurred to me I had noticed the tractor had chrome Wheel Horse wheel covers on one side. I decided to see if it had a complete set (it was lying at a slight angle with one side partially buried in the mud).

 

I went back over to it and scraped off the mud.  It had a complete set of the WH chromed hub caps.  Then I noticed it had what appeared to be a nearly perfect 42" side discharge deck, complete with the safety covers.  Then I noted it had a mule drive too.  Then I noted it had a solid looking front axle with the tie rods intact and the elevated front wheel was tight on the spindle.  Long story short, I ended up grabbing the complete 42" deck, mule drive, front axle (with what appeared to be almost new tires) along with the tie rods and paid a grand total of $42 for them (salvage metal yard cost).

 

I brought them all home, sprayed the mud off the deck and noted there was ZERO rust or holes in it (none), no dents and the spindles turned perfectly.  The blades were even in excellent shape.  I power spray cleaned the entire inside of the deck, then wire wheeled it, then coated the bare metal with three coats of the POR-15 gloss.  I inspected the front axle, then looked at my old Raider and decided the axles were interchangeable too.  So off came the old axle and tie rods from Thumper and on went the newer axle and tie rods.  Now his steering is tight as well as his tie rods.  I mounted the newer 42" deck (I have the attach-o-matic mounts) and the spindles just purred when I mowed with it.  The rear hub caps fit my wheels but the fronts were for the smaller rims.  That find was, and remains, my absolute best find I ever came across at my local metal yard.  If Thumper could talk, he would probably agree. 

 

My second would be stumbling across a Kohler K301 that was a generator unit at the same place, but different day.  It was obvious the generator had failed.... but the engine was almost pristine in appearance. I debated grabbing the entire thing, but (stupidly) decided not to because of the added weight of the generator would have probably pushed the total cost to $40-50 (yeah... I know).  I ended up just scavenging the carb and fuel pump off of it.  I thought about it as I drove home and decided I would go back the very next day and buy the whole damned thing.  Of course, the very next morning as the place opened, it was gone by then.  I still kick myself a little for that bone head decision.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Ballbuster
spelling

[Sarge 3,463]

My son-in-law owns a 1067 in very good condition, except for the paint - it came out of a metal scrap yard. There was also a newer model Horse in the C series from his description that he wanted, but the crane operator grabbed it off the pile for him and completely crushed all the upper sheet metal - but it had a nearly new 48" deck on it that only had one small scratch on the outside. He bought both for $60 out the gate and uses that 1067 all the time - I only had to clean the carb to have it running in perfect order. He hasn't even changed the old belts yet and it performs just fine and has pulled some serious weight despite my warnings about abusing the frame. Why people throw this stuff away is beyond me - all the local scrap yards will have 1 main guy that oversees the metal piles - I make arrangements and leave my phone number with them and get calls for certain things I'm after -it's resulted in some great parts at the best discount price one could ask for - including a nearly new 42" blade with all the linkage attached for $12. Never overlook a scrap yard and spend some time there regularly - you'd be amazed at what folks throw away...

 

Sarge

[daveoman1966 3,762]

NORM...  I am about to send you the GEAR SHIFT FORK.  Is this what you are expecting, or are you after the HI/LO SHIFT FORK.  I do NOT have the latter and I certainly don't want to send the wrong part...  

I will NOT mail this until I get a confirmation reply from you.  

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by daveoman1966
changew

[Ballbuster 17]

I was wanting the hi/lo shift fork, Dave. Mine appears to be excessively worn allowing the gear to eat it.  Check your e-mails.

 

Thanks,  Norm

[Ballbuster 17]

Someone on the forum here on Red Square provided this example for securing the hubs more firmly to the axles.  I pulled both my hubs, tapped two small pilot holes at the 4 and 8 o'clock positions, then drilled out the pilot holes with a 5/16" bit and tapped the holes with a 3/8-16 tap and screwed in some new 3/8" locks.  Inserted two new 1/4"X1" woodruffs and reassembled onto the axle.  Hopefully the hubs will remain in place on the axle now.