My 856 Project

[Sarge 3,463]

Scrappers only see iron weight and money - not valuable equipment and have no desire to try to market it to someone that would want such items, which is a crying shame. I keep a standing set of orders at all the yards in the area and certain "friends" get a free lunch now and then for good scores. Any red and heavy tractors, certain alloy metals and various tools/machinery come through they call me or send a text and I'll stop by. Almost all of those guys have a "stash" spot to keep important things folks throw away for scrap - the trick is knowing which ones to get acquainted with and how to deal with them to their benefit.

 

I'd love to get a chance to hit some of the shows and meet the members on here, but summer is my work season and I can't be away , someday I'll retire and hopefully get the time to do so - we have a lot of good people here with a lot of knowledge. Not whining, it's all good and I deserve a bit of criticism for rambling - never was good at explaining things without every little detail I feel is important and I do try to be precise, yet short as possible.

 

Sarge

[jebbear 377]

Not a lot new today as far as actual physical work on the tractor, but I made my decisions on the transmission bearings. I spent a lot of time checking and visually evaluating the condition of the needle bearings, trying and fitting the various shafts in each as well as moving the needles with my fingers. Bottom line, not really knowing for sure what a brand new bearing would feel like in each, if the bearing even remotely raised a question as far as any lateral or rotational movement, or what I perceived as excessive up and down play of the needles inside the cage, I didn't second guess myself and decided on replacement. The ones I chose were naturally the 1532 (which was toast), the 1530 (opposite on the same shaft - brake), the (2) 1508's on the input shaft, and the (2) 1528 outer end axle bearings. Some of these may or may not have needed replacement, but I kind of figured it sure wouldn't hurt anything, other than make my wallet just a little thinner. That said, I placed my order today with Motion Industries for the bearings and all of the seals ( @stevasaurus for the great leads on the transmission bearings spreadsheet posted on the forum as well as the lead on M/I). Tip to others considering this work: before actually ordering, I requested a quote from them on the needed parts, and it actually came back with a few bucks off of the listed retail prices on a few of the items. Wasn't a lot, but I guess all things considered, even the listed prices were reasonable and weren't really that excessive to begin with. The guy at the Pittsburgh branch that I spoke with said I should have them at my house around next Tuesday. I guess there is no big hurry, since I still need painting conditions in order to complete the paint on the transmission case before I can reassemble. That will give me a little more time to ponder the gears, which if I decide on any, may be that 3rd gear.

 

The other thing I accomplished today was a road trip. I followed up on my local lead for the rascal that got me into this project to begin with, the starter/generator. I had previously researched and found a local shop (about 35 miles away) which I had never dealt with before as these places are getting harder to find than hens teeth. When I walked in, my jaw about hit the floor because my first impression was that place has been around since automobiles and tractors replaced the real horse. All I saw was shelf after shelf and bin after bin of every imaginable starter, generator, alternator part along with piles and piles of starters that have ever been made. Don't know when they actually started the business (there was only one gentleman there), but he said his father started this years ago. Now for the good part! I mentioned to him that I knew my armature was cooked, but wasn't sure about the fields or anything else, and wasn't even sure if it was worth salvaging. He immediately began to look into the thing, confirmed the armature and tested the fields which were OK, and the bearings were fine. The neat part was, he invited me back into the work area with him (you would have to see this place to believe it) while he commenced to go to work on this thing. He opens up a couple of old manuals, looks up some numbers, and the next thing I knew, we were walking back along one of those endless shelves. He walks over to one bin and blows the dust off of a box, and voila, it contains my new armature. Long story short, he says, "I'll put in new brushes too, how does $65 sound?" Well, knowing what used and untested ones on flea bay were going for, I figured I couldn't go wrong. I almost felt like the woman on the TV commercial that is running out of the big box store yelling for her hubby to hurry up and start the car! He doesn't do credit cards, cash only, so I tell him that I need to find an ATM which by the time I get back, he has the completed unit setting on a test block and in running order. This whole process from the time I walked in carrying a box full of dismantled and burned starter parts until I walked out with a completely rebuilt starter was probably in the neighborhood of an hour. When I started this trek today, I had my doubts whether I would even accomplish anything since I approached it more as an exploratory trip just to weigh my options. My thoughts were that anyone who looked in my box of burned up starter parts, after a good laugh would reply with, "and you want me to fix that old thing?" I figured that at least a bare minimum I would need to leave it and have to drive back down at least a week later only to find out that the patient had died. Anyway, overall I think it was a great day, a memorable one none the less. Oh, by the way, I did tell this gentleman that I would highly recommend him to anyone needing this type of work done. He says that he does just about everything, from autos to tractors to industrial equipment. I can pass his contact info to any of you if anyone here is interested, since these places can be pretty hard to find these days. His shop is in Monongahela, PA.

12 hours ago, Sarge said:

it's all good and I deserve a bit of criticism for rambling

No Sarge, your posts are not rambling, this post is rambling!

Edited February 24, 2018 by jebbear

[WHX?? 49,177]

All good stuff Jeb..ramble all you care ...maybe you and Sarge can have a ramble off some time! Really what it comes down to is how much can you afford or want to put into the hobby. Certainly don't want to see your kids go hungry because of a starter!  Does sound like you walked into the right shop... can't find that kinda shop any more. One more thing before I start to ramble is YES we do want you fix that old thing and we will be here for ramblings and advice should so be required. 

[Ed Kennell 38,687]

That shop you found sounds  like one located 4 mile from me in Springvale, Pa.  The owner  operates the business on reputation and cash...no receipts, warranties  or estimating.

He recently rebuilt the starter on my  20 year old 70HP Johnson outboard for $35.  When I pay him, I always tell him  I don't have change and I round it up to the nearest $20 bill.

The sad news is, on Wed. I heard he is retiring and closing the shop. 

[Sarge 3,463]

I do everything I can to keep shops like that around - unfortunately the folks that ran them are getting , uh, OLD. A few around here died in the shop working on people's stuff - a true testament to dedication to their craft. I have one auto electric guy left around here and he's been threatening retirement for years, hope he never goes away. These old shops are a core value around here, I pad them with extra cash just to help keep them around as well - "have a nice lunch" is usually the comment that goes with the tip....lol. Another one we're losing is the old-school welding shops - one of the best in Illinois is right next door and he's a good friend as well as mentor - he's got 10yrs more experience and learned from his Dad that opened the place in the 40's. His son is a Boilermaker but doesn't want to take over the shop when his dad is done - that's a crying shame since he's really good at what he does, we've worked together in a few of the plants and he's definitely got his dad's teachings in his work. I know if Sam ever quits , the farmers around here are screwed for someone to fix their junk.

 

Doubt I can do a "ramble off" - my hands are about shot as well as the eyes...

 

Sarge

[jebbear 377]

Got my new bearings & seals delivered today, I decided also to replace the 3rd gear while I'm in there & ordered it from Lowell. Still can't do much reassembly though until I can get the case painted. I got to thinking though, there have been a lot of changes to oils & lubes since 1966. My manual says to use 3 pints of SAE 40 in the tranny. Is this still the best choice or are there better alternatives in modern days? I always thought gear boxes used gear oil such as 80-90 weight, and something tells me that may be what I used, probably erroneously, on one of the prior changes. I know when I drained it for the rebuild, it did look mighty thick. Any thoughts on this, oil weight, multi-viscosity, preferred brands, etc? If I use what the manual says (SAE 40), is that just straight 40 weight motor oil or do they make a 40 weight gear oil, or is there no difference? Never did quite understand all of the different oil classes and ratings such as GL-4 & GL-5 and API codings.

Edited February 27, 2018 by jebbear

[stevasaurus 22,872]

I would use 90wt or 80/90wt from Tractor Supply.  It is good oil and you being from Penn, I would not go thinner.   If I was in Canada, I would consider 40wt in the winter...but not if I had a heated garage. 

   Too bad about that guy retiring...I was going to tell you to go ahead and add that information here in your thread. 

You did very good running into that guy.  those people are getting rare.

[Sarge 3,463]

I'd run 75/90 synthetic,  it will help a lot with shifting the gears and flow easier than 80/90 standard gear oil.

 

Sarge

[jebbear 377]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:25 AM, Sarge said:

I'd run 75/90 synthetic

Sounds like a good choice Sarge, I think that is what I will go with.

[jebbear 377]

Well, I got the transmission all put back together this weekend. I decided to go ahead and reassemble prior to the paint job, hoping that I can wrestle this thing enough to make it red as a whole unit without ruining the paint in the process. One minor set back, when I went to install the dog point set screw in the shifter, the darn thing snapped off. Luckily I was able to grab the piece with a pair of diagonal cutters and back it out easily. It must have been on the verge of breaking anyway because it basically broke without even snugging it up on the ball, hence it removed very easily. I saw in another post on the forum that someone mentioned Fastenal carries these, so off I go to Fastenal tomorrow to see what I can come up with. One concern I have about the transmission that maybe you guys can help me with. Everything seems to work OK, goes through all of the gears, & everything seems to turn freely like it should. My concern is that it just doesn't seem to "click" into each gear very positive. I wondered if it could possibly be from a weak spring in the spring/ball(s) detent on the forks, or maybe its just a result of the sum of all of the general wear in all of the other stuff, (or maybe its just my imagination). I'm sure that I got the spring, pin, and balls installed correctly, but there is always that little voice that says maybe one of the little balls didn't go where it was supposed to go & I just didn't catch it or some other stupid little thing that I missed. Hopefully its fine, but it just doesn't feel like it locks into the gears very positively, if that makes sense. Is this normal? Have you guys ever had to replace the little spring because it was weak? Possibly when I get the set screw installed on the shifter, it might also feel a little different too. If I do have some sort of problem or issue, I would sure want to address it now, even if it takes splitting the thing apart again & ruining a new gasket to check something . I sure don't want to find out later that it won't stay in gear or has a tendency to pop out of gear easily under power.

[ebinmaine 68,444]

My B has unknown but fairly low hours/wear and it does not -click- into any gear.... just slides in.....

[jebbear 377]

Thanks @ebinmaine, I guess “click” in my description is not really the right word, but I always thought that I could “feel” it more when the balls engaged the detents when shifting. Maybe it’s just my recollections failing me, but just want to be sure before assuming anything.

[ebinmaine 68,444]

Oh yeah. No worries. I know what you mean. I drive several different trucks throughout the week and they all behave differently.

I'm only one guy with only one tractor so the others opinions or experiences May differ, such as yours.

[jebbear 377]

Well, I guess as the saying goes, nothing is easy, at least not for me anyway. Made my trek yesterday to the local Fastenal to pick up the dog point set screw for the shifter. Naturally, not in stock and the guy checked other inventories & couldn't find anything closer than Cincinnati, OH that has one in stock. Here's the kicker, he said he can order one for $1.45, PLUS approx. $8.00 for shipping! I refused to do that just out of principal for something that could be thrown in an envelope with a 50 cent stamp. So being one for improvising, I went to the local big box store, bought a  pack of (2) 1/4"-20 x 3/4 set screws which were made of stainless steel none the less for 98 cents & figured I can turn the point down on the lathe. Now for the really, really BAD news (for me anyway). I fire up the lathe & hear this awful growling noise coming from the motor & notice it wasn't spinning the drive. Turns out the motor shaft key had spun out of the motor armature shaft and totally destroyed the lathe motor shaft. So here I am deep into this project, with no lathe to do some of the fabrication that I had planned, at least until I can rectify this lathe motor situation. It's a 1 HP single phase reversible electric motor so they aren't exactly cheap. It could probably be repaired if I knew someone that was good with a tig welder, and be able to turn the shaft back down & mill a keyway. That would probably cost more than a new motor though at a regular machine shop, unless I could find someone that just does this as a hobby & wouldn't charge an arm and a leg. I'd be more than willing to buy the beer !! Anybody out there know anyone like that, or have any resources or suggestions? Short of that, it's new motor time, but that puts an awful unexpected dent into the Wheel Horse project funds. Anyway, in order just to finish this set screw part of the project, I did figure out a way to improvise once again to make the dog point. What I did was chuck the regular set screw in my cordless drill and spun the thing on the grinder basically machining the point by hand. It actually worked very well & rather than turning it down to the original diameter of the broken piece, I left it at about .008" oversize to take out some of the shifter slop. Here are a couple of pics:

[JPWH 6,100]

Im disappointed that I never thought about a drill with the grinder. lol

[jebbear 377]

2 minutes ago, JPWH said:

I never thought about a drill with the grinder.

It really is a simple fix, something that just about anyone could utilize at some point & not requiring lathes or any expensive special equipment. Naturally not the most precise, but for a pin like this, perfect solution.

[ebinmaine 68,444]

50 minutes ago, jebbear said:

It really is a simple fix, something that just about anyone could utilize at some point & not requiring lathes or any expensive special equipment. Naturally not the most precise, but for a pin like this, perfect solution.

Well done sir.

Very impressed 

[Sarge 3,463]

The only cheap way out on that lathe motor would be a used one, but even then it's going to be expensive. You could get on the OWWM or Practical Machinist site and ask those folks,  as long as it's not an imported unit. Another option is to convert it to a reversible dc motor and drive,  but in the end,  even if you found a free motor that's going to cost a lot . This stuff happens more often than you think, no cheap solutions either.

 

The market prices for single phase motors is high, new or used since most folks don't have 3ph available. The 3ph motors are half the cost and vfd units are coming down in price but it's a can of worms to convert a lathe over correctly. I'm sure if you research that model for failures and solutions you'll find lots of ideas that are already established fixes.

 

Sarge

[jebbear 377]

Thanks, Sarge. I kind of feared that it was not going to be an easy fix. I was doing a little research on line and found this stuff called "Belzona" which is an industrial epoxy. It sounds like its the industry standard for this type of fix and appears to have a high success rate, but there again, it's not a good sign when prices are not readily listed, so that's probably not an economical option either. The cheapest motor that I found was Harbor Freight, key word being "cheapest", as that is probably what I would get. I really don't use the lathe a lot though, and its heavy duty days are over anyway, but I'm just a little leery of investing half the cost of a new reputable brand, but will end up taking two or three replacements down the road. Anyone have any experience with H/F motors? I'll keep looking for a used one for now, but it certainly put the brakes on this Wheel Horse project.

[WHX?? 49,177]

Nice job on making the dog point Jeb.. I did the same thing except not smart enough to use the drill. In the future if you need some more of the just let us know and more than likely you get some in the mail for free. We get them from McMaster in bulk for cheap and are more than happy to share. They always seem snap right where the hex ends in them...go figure. I use slightly longer ones & see if that helps.

 

Just for grins throw up some pics of that busted lathe motor and maybe we can come up with other ideas? I have access to a large selection of them at contractor prices so ya never know?

[jebbear 377]

Thanks, @WHX14 on the dog points. You're absolutely correct on the breakage point, right where the hex ended. Hopefully, maybe the stainless steel one that I got will have good durability. I used the original 3/4" length, but as I mentioned above, I constantly miked it as I was turning and left it about .008" oversize and it made a world of difference in the shifter play.

 

46 minutes ago, WHX14 said:

Just for grins throw up some pics of that busted lathe motor 

Here are the pics of the lathe motor that you requested. This is not the original motor, but was installed by the gentleman that found the lathe for me at auction from the local vo-tech school years ago. He was a motor whiz, & rest his soul if he were around today, I would bet he could walk out to his shop and pull another one right off of the shelf. BTW, on a side note, I called the LeBlond company who manufactured my lathe & spoke with a very nice gentleman trying to get some insight on what the thing came with originally as far as a motor and drive sheaves. Very interesting conversation, as he actually told me some of the history of the lathe & when it was built, just by giving him the Serial # on the machine. He said that it was manufactured & delivered to the Air Force at Bolling Field on November 30, 1940 and that the LeBlond Company made a lot of lathes for war-time service. But I digress as this is not a Wheel Horse topic (there I go rambling again), Just threw this out there if anyone else has one of these old machines and might have the curiosity of where it has been to give them a call.

[WHX?? 49,177]

3 hours ago, jebbear said:

But I digress as this is not a Wheel Horse topic

No problem your thread. Interesting story tho...1940 and possibly used to make parts for the war effort! Nothing like a vintage patriotic lathe!  Now saving  instead of our boy's lives!   Do a thread in tools on it!

[Sarge 3,463]

The folks at the OWWM site will know exactly what motors will work with the LeBlonde - they love those machines. There are some unusual things about that forum, so read the rules closely.

A Leland motor should have plenty of direct cross-overs to other brands with the same frame number and dimensions.

 

Sarge

[jebbear 377]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

The folks at the OWWM site...

Thanks for the lead Sarge, that looks like it could be a very interesting place to follow. Maybe some day I can try to fix up the lathe like I'm trying to do to the Wheel Horse, not that I need another project at the moment! As far as the frame & dimensions of the motor, I'm sure that I won't be able to be too picky and still be affordable as long as I'm able to adapt another one someway. The way the motor mounts on the lathe, it should give me a lot of wiggle room to make something work.

[jebbear 377]

Still no resolution to the lathe issue, so until I figure out what to do I thought I would go back to where I left off before with the bronze bearings (I bounce around and multi-task a lot ).

Finished up the front axle, spindles, and pivot pin & pressed in the bearings:

 

Here is what I did where the steering shaft originally went directly through the steel support in the frame. I reamed the hole in the frame to accept a 3/4" x 7/8" x 1/2" flange bearing. Then (I don't know if this was really necessary but added it anyway), I fabricated a steel bracket to kind of hold the flange bearing in place since the frame was only about 1/4" thick where the bearing went through. The two holes were already in the frame, so it was just a matter of adding a couple of bolts to hold it in. I didn't press this one in yet until I can strip and prep the frame for painting. The primer is just a quick rattle can misting for now to keep it from rusting.

 

Next was the rear of the frame where the clutch idler/pulley shaft goes through the frame. this one took (2) 1/2" x 5/8" x 1/2" flange bearings. Again, these are not installed yet until the frame is prepped.

 

Next came the lift lever where it goes through the hoodstand assembly.  Couldn't do much with the bearing block that was already mounted on the lever, but it actually didn't have a lot of play in it anyway. Seemed like all of the wear was on the opposite end (right side) where it went through the hoodstand. This one took a 1" x 1-1/4" x 3/4" flange bearing, which I may need to trim the length a little once it is actually pressed in. In the second photo, you'll notice that I also had to re-fabricate and weld the little threaded tab that holds the belt guard.

 

And finally the thing that I have been kind of putting off for fear of ruining, but all seemed to come out OK in the end, was that angled steering support block. It took a lot of "finagling" to say the least in order to get the set-up and angle correct in the drill press. I even reground my 7/8" drill bit to more of a 135° angle because it seemed to want to over-bore the hole when I started drilling. Unfortunately, the new bearing was still not as snug as I would have liked with a press fit, so I cheated a little with a thin coat of JB-Weld. It's plenty snug now, but I hope the next guy that comes after me has a torch if he ever needs to replace that bearing again!This one took a 3/4" x 7/8" x 3/4" straight bearing since a flange would interfere with the pinion gear. I left it slightly long for now until I assemble the whole thing, until I see how well the whole thing fits together when I assemble, then I'll just take a file to it if need be. I also installed a straight bearing in the lower portion of the block where the fan gear shaft goes through, 3/4" x 7/8" x 1/2". What I actually did for these (2) bearings was purchased an extra 3/4" x 7/8" x 1-1/4" (same as I used in the spindles) and cut this one to make both of these bearings.

 

That's about all I have new for now. If anyone is interested, I made up a little spreadsheet with all of the bearings that I have been using that are crossed referenced with McMaster-Carr stock numbers. I mainly did this for myself so it wasn't like building a jigsaw puzzle, not remembering which bearing went where from the ones I ordered, but you are all welcome to the info if you want it.

 

Oh, I do have one more question, maybe its a dumb one, but I'll ask anyway. On the brake pedal, there are three holes where the brake linkage rod is attached to only one. I assume that these are variable to set the proper pedal movement, but which one is the correct one to use? Mine was currently in the bottom hole (see arrow in photo below), but that's not saying it is the correct one. Didn't know if these different holes were for different applications or if it was just a personal preference choice for the operator to set the pedal where desired? The reason I ask, I need to install a little flange bearing in which ever hole is the right one and I don't plan on pressing one in all three.