My 856 Project

[jebbear 377]

Hi all! Finally got around to starting this makeover on my 856.  A little background on this tractor (1966 model - don't want to tell my age but you guys do the math), when I was a youngster at about 12 years of age, my neighbor bought this tractor brand new to maintain about 8 acres of property. I was intrigued and amazed at this machine as any 12 year old kid would be. So everytime I would see him out mowing, I would run over to his yard and he would let me mow for him (I know, he was probably a lot wiser than I was), just so I could ride around the yard on this sleek machine. I guess it was a win - win for both of us. Anyway, long story short and fast forward several decades, I ended up purchasing his entire estate after his passing, and guess what came with it. Anyway, after a gazillion hours between the original owner and myself, mowing and hauling and plowing snow, along with my dad maintaining a garden with it for years, I decided it was time to try and give her a new lease on life. She still ran OK, but I could tell she was getting a little tired and cantankerous in her old age and like any fine lady wanted to look young and pristine again. She has always been a true and reliable "work horse", which is what I still have in mind to this day. So that brings me to today, and here I am. I have pretty much completed the engine rebuild (which some of you guys have already provided some assistance in another thread) and have started into the tractor and chassis. This is actually the second go around with this machine, as I kind of did a rebuild back in 1986, just replacing some of the worn out stuff and giving her a quick shot of new paint. To reiterate, I couldn't even begin to estimate how many hours are on this beauty which I have no doubt is staggering, but I refuse to let her go. Anyway, that all being said, I am certain to have a bunch of questions for this undertaking which I am sure you guys have seen many times over and thank you all in advance for any assistance that you can provide. I guess I am limited as to how many pictures that I can post, but I will try to put a few up along the way. This is how she looked before I started.

[cpete1 332]

Welcome aboard, I'm guessing you already know how miserable and nasty these people are on this site, and they don't help with anything, and if they do give you any information its just to throw you off course cause they are not friendly to anybody. I was so taken back by how nasty they were, I just became a supporter because I couldn't believe how mean they are. That being said, I look forward to watching your progress and I'm certain you'll have a wonderful time interacting with all these miserable people for assistance. 

 

She is a beautiful machine, should be cool to watch the rebuild. Thanks for taking us along for the ride.

Chris

[Pollack Pete 2,273]

Nice looking Horse.Nice story that goes with it too.An 856 is what started all this lunacy for me.Still have it tucked away in a sea container in my back yard.

[jackhammer 546]

Good looking machine jebbear, with the help you might need,  you probably might  have to put up more pics.

 

 

Not much limits here and tons of help.  Good luck in your venture and definitely let us see what is going on.

[AMC RULES 37,134]

Loved the "before"... 

and I'm sure, the after too. 

[Ed Kennell 38,715]

That's one sweet little tractor and a great story.   Not many of us have had the opportunity to use a 50+ year old tractor since new. Thanks for sharing the story.

Those short frame 8s are great machines.   I have reconditioned several 875s that I have resold to new owners, and I still have a Commando 8.

Yes, please keep us posted on the progress with plenty of pictures.   Tear down pictures may also be a real help to you during the reassembly.

And, like HAMMER said above, becoming a supporter will eliminate any picture posting problems.

 

          GOOD LUCK

Oh, where is McClellandtown  located?

[ACman 7,621]

 cool looking 856 and even better history behind it . 

 

Just consider the $20 you spend on  being a SUPPORTER part of your restoration for documentation purposes . Makes posting pictures so easy.

The more  you post the better. It will help you and the rest of us get you through your restoration especially if a question or problem comes up . Not to mention that  for your fellow Horse- A -Holics to feed our addiction  !

Edited January 20, 2018 by ACman

[jebbear 377]

Thanks everyone for the welcoming comments. Cpete - I already noticed how "miserable and nasty" everyone is here from reading some of the forum posts, that's why I am here. Seriously, you all sound like a bunch of dedicated and great people that are all part of a wonderful hobby. Ed, it is rather unique I think to have a 50+ year relationship with this same machine, that is why I shared the story. McClellandtown is located in southwestern PA, 50 miles south of Pittsburgh, actually closer to Morgantown, WV. I'll consider the Supporter idea.

[Vinylguy 4,674]

59 minutes ago, jebbear said:

Thanks everyone for the welcoming comments. Cpete - I already noticed how "miserable and nasty" everyone is here from reading some of the forum posts, that's why I am here. Seriously, you all sound like a bunch of dedicated and great people that are all part of a wonderful hobby. Ed, it is rather unique I think to have a 50+ year relationship with this same machine, that is why I shared the story. McClellandtown is located in southwestern PA, 50 miles south of Pittsburgh, actually closer to Morgantown, WV. I'll consider the Supporter idea.

 

Jebbear

 Thanks for sharing this rebuild with all us miserably crabby forum members here at RedSquare. I as many others look forward to many posts and pictures of your progress.

I am fortunate to have a 50 year old commando 8 with the rear discharge deck and am amazed at how hard it works for me. 

There are many benefits to becoming a support member here and one of them is that all support members who are registered on my website rec. a 15% discount off all items in my store.

But here is the kicker, If you decide to become a paid support member I have a complete set of 856 decals that I will for this project if you pm me your address.

Again thank you for sharing and I look forward to watching you get the 856 ready for another 50 years of hard work.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Vinylguy

[jebbear 377]

52 minutes ago, Vinylguy said:

There are many benefits to becoming a support member here and one of them is that all support members who are registered on my website rec. a 15% discount off all items in my store.

But here is the kicker, If you decide to become a paid support member I have a complete set of 856 decals that I will for this project if you pm me your address.

Thanks so much for your offer. I guess I should have started this project last month because believe it or not, back in December I already purchased from you a complete set of decals including Kohler items for the tractor. I know I probably put the cart before the "Horse" by buying these first, but I made the purchase up front as an added incentive to proceed and convince myself that I can make her look new again! I will consider the support member anyway, thanks again.

[jebbear 377]

OK guys, you convinced me. Notice that a "Supporter" logo just appeared by my member ID!

[cpete1 332]

Now You too are a miserable, crabby, don't help with anything, rude member of this rotten bunch of people forum. I bet just in the short time you were here , you couldn't believe how bad it was and that's why you joined. That's what happened to me!!! Now you'll see just what I saw when I joined...

 

Welcome aboard, and Congratulations on the "RED" listing. Don't tell anybody I said this , but its one of the best forums I've ever been involved not to mention how cool the tractors are. Very much look forward to your restoration and any information it provides to help when I do mine. The biggest problem I see on the horizon is matching talent with these guys. 

Chris,

PS. Vinylguy's tractor looks really rough doesn't it.... ...(I don't have that good a paint job on my car for god sakes)

Edited January 20, 2018 by cpete1

[jackhammer 546]

jebbear , like everyone above has stated , we are anxious to see progress results on this ,   welcome to the supporter group

[JPWH 6,101]

I look forward to following your build.

[Vinylguy 4,674]

2 hours ago, cpete1 said:

 

PS. Vinylguy's tractor looks really rough doesn't it.... ...(I don't have that good a paint job on my car for god sakes)

 Wish it looked like that now Chris. Got the pulley replaced and needs a good detailing before the lake opens this spring.

Also need to see if I can get the rear lift pin out to install one of Lowell's hitches. Hoping to find a good lawn sweep for it.

 

4 hours ago, jebbear said:

OK guys, you convinced me. Notice that a "Supporter" logo just appeared by my member ID!

Just put your account in the rs supporter group and next time you log in you will see the prices are 15% lower for any future orders.

Also if you have any issues at all with the decals let me know asap so I can take care of any issues.

If you make it to the BIG Show we are in the 4-H barn. 

[Desko 610]

Very cool jebbear! I noticed you're from Mcclellandtown Pa also and so am I! Small world isn't it? 

[jebbear 377]

2 minutes ago, Desko said:

Very cool jebbear! I noticed you're from Mcclellandtown Pa also and so am I! Small world isn't it? 

Wow, sure is! I know where Desko Road is, your area?

[Desko 610]

Just now, jebbear said:

Wow, sure is! I know where Desko Road is, your area?

Yes sir it is 

[jebbear 377]

7 minutes ago, Desko said:

Very cool jebbear! I noticed you're from Mcclellandtown Pa also and so am I! Small world isn't it? 

I'm up near the fire hall off of 21. Glad to meet you, we'll have to hook up some time.

[Desko 610]

Not to far lol. You too! Might have to see that horse in person when she's finished! 

[jebbear 377]

OK, now down to business. This is what I tore into today and thought I would throw this out there for any recommendations, comments, & opinion. Started working on the front end, specifically the steering spindles and front axle. More to come later on the steering shafts etc., but one step at a time. After reading several past posts on this forum concerning axle and spindle upgrades and repairs, the consensus seems that some prefer to bore/ream the axle casting and insert bronze sleeve bushings to minimize spindle play. Well again a little background on my project, as I stated earlier I did a partial overhaul back in 1986. Back then, I encountered the same issues with play in these areas. Remember that this was before the internet (at least for me) and specifically did not have the luxury of sites like Red Square nor did I have access to the wealth of knowledge that you guys have all acquired. So, not wanting to go out back then and buy all new spindles, axle, etc. I came up with a novel idea on my own to mitigate this problem and guess what I did. Imagine this, I bored/reamed the axle and inserted bronze sleeve bushings. I remember being scared to death that I was ruining a good tractor as I was cutting away in the cast iron, not knowing what the outcome would be down the road, if it would last, or if this would even work. I re-used the original spindles which had some play but at least I was eliminating the wear in the outer casting. So fast forward to today, knowing what I did then I couldn't wait to see how my backyard engineering had performed and went straight to this area first. Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised that it actually performed better than I could have imagined. I had a lot of play again (remember, a half a gazillion hours later) which was expected, but the good news is that almost all of today's wear is in the bronze bushings and not that much new in the spindles. To the best of my knowledge, I think that almost all of the wear that I found today was what I found back then. I miked the wear areas and have posted these pictures to show my findings. Thought that maybe some of you might be interested in seeing how well this method actually performed after 31 years of service. Wish that I would have actually measured and documented the wear back then for a real life comparison but not the case. The indicated measurements on the photos are the min/max wear up and down the bushing areas which are somewhat egg-shaped, based on a full 3/4 inch shaft. Note that I used 3/4" ID x 7/8" OD x 1" Length general purpose bronze bushings, top and bottom in the spindles, therefore, there is virtually no wear in the center of the shafts between the bushed areas. The wheel shaft area of the spindles indicates wear at the point of the wheel ball bearings (see photos), but I did nothing back then in the way of repair. I basically just cleaned the wheel bearings, regreased, and reused the original bearings.

So this is what I'm throwing out there for discussion, in your professional opinions based on my measurements, are these spindles still usable for another go around, assuming that obviously I will be replacing the old bronze bushings? I realize that there is still wear and there will still be some play which I can live with an ALMOST new but not necessarily an off the assembly line machine. Would you recommend any changes to the bushings, such as longer lengths to extend wear to some of the unworn portion of the shaft? What type of bushings would you recommend? I originally used the only ones I had available at the time, which were a standard duty plain bronzed sleeve bushing. I see that McMaster Carr sells all sorts now including "oillite", HD types, figure 8 grooved types, different materials, etc. Which of these would be the best option? I plan on changing the wheel bearings and possibly new shim washers based on assembly measurements this time around so, are the wear areas in the axle shafts anything to be concerned about? Any recommendations to mitigate this wear to insure the bearing spins on the balls and not on the shaft, or is this a non issue with new bearings? Anything else that you see that I should consider, anything I am missing, or any recommendations to further improve what I have would be appreciated? Sorry for the long post, but I tried to include all pertinent details to paint a good picture of what I am working with.

[wallfish 17,084]

IMO if the bushings worked for 30+ years then replacing them should be good for another 30, plus they can easily be replaced. Take this opinion with a grain of salt since those measurements posted can't be seen on the tape measure I use.

Another thing to consider may be the use of thrust bearings between the spindle arm and cast axle instead of using the thrust washer. The axle may need to be shaved for them to fit but it will eliminate another wear point and help with ease of steering.

Thanks for sharing the story of your horse!

[jebbear 377]

3 hours ago, wallfish said:

...thrust bearings between the spindle arm and cast axle

I have considered this and am still on the fence about it. My biggest fear is a method to seal dirt from getting into the rollers. I might be wrong, but it seems that a thrust washer would be a little tighter, though not as efficient, to prevent the introduction of dirt into the wear area. I'm really not sure though, and still might attempt this if I hear convincing support for the idea. I read another thread on this forum somewhere where someone else (I think it was "Sarge") did a major axle upgrade and added thrust bearings. I would be interested to know how well it is working. The other issue is a method to shave down the casting to allow for the additional clearance required. Not sure how to attempt this with accuracy. Thanks for the input.

[Sarge 3,463]

Yes, I used thrust bearings on the D180. The D series as well as the 520 axles use a thin roller thrust bearing to support the rotational weight against the spindle. Makes a huge difference in steering effort and wear. Keeping dirt out is really not a problem although I did cut some inner tube rubber to help seal up the area. Besides, the bearing sits inside a recess in the axle casting on those models. The biggest issue I ran into on the D axle was it had not been properly greased for a long time - the bearings had come apart and chewed up the axle itself. I ended up having to build a counter bore tool with a cobalt lathe cutter to re-cut the recessed ledge on the bottom facing of the axle casting. The outer dimension of the axle casting is important - some are fairly thin and don't leave enough meat for a bearing to ride upon, so it's something you have to check versus the sizing on the bearing. McMaster and others carry these roller thrust bearings as well as the hardened steel thrust washers that go with them - most come in two thicknesses to work with different applications. If you do this upgrade to a non-bearing axle on any other model you will have to remove some material to allow the extra height to work with the existing spindle. I just cut mine with an angle grinder and a thin cutoff wheel, then file it as square to the bore as possible.

 

Keep in mind, you don't necessarily have to use roller thrust bearings. Bronze Oilite, or even better - Super Oilite flange bearings work almost as well. They do not have to be recessed into the casting - just bore to the outside diameter of the bushing (keep this bore as tight as you can) and remove enough of the overall height to make the spindle fit. Best option is to use a tapered bridge or mechanic's reamer so you can control it. It would obviously be a better idea to use a mill if you have access or you can farm it out to a machine shop - they can overbore the axle casting and leave a nice square facing for the flange bearing - sized properly and tight so it doesn't spin under a load and wear the axle casting. Trying to use a drill bit to cut the hole size larger is nearly impossible to keep it on track and square to the casting's bore - not to mention most are worn egg shaped and fighting a 13/16" or 7/8" size bit is like wrestling a foul tempered bear. Using a bridge reamer and coming in from under the axle bore while watching the tip on the bit to make sure it stays within the center of the existing hole will keep it very close to the original angle. Most WH axles I've checked are right at 20* camber with a 2-3* castor angle. If you lose that angle, even just a few degrees it will show up as wear on the tires and make it difficult to steer. I had to scrap one axle that I had tried to use a drill bit - the angle was off horribly and the steering would actually bind hard enough it put the fan gear at risk of breaking, lesson learned.

 

Using these flange bearings on both top and bottom makes a huge difference in long term wear and steering effort - which also affects steering component wear. My oldest examples of this upgrade are still very tight with nearly zero play - or any perceptible wear marks either , parts still look new after 30+yrs like yours. It is so nice and smooth to operate something with steering that is tight and accurate - even on a low speed garden tractor and all of mine can be steered with one finger - regardless of the implement and front axle load. Keep in mind - I also mostly run ag tires on the front - those are quite sticky on hard surfaces and can add a lot of wear to spindles and other components, the upgrades make them steer like tri-rib tires.

 

The reason for all this work - I keep things for a very long time and use them to their full potential - and beyond. To me, trying to source or replace worn out parts at the given age of these tractors is a problem - some of these spindles are odd and weren't used on that many models - also those same spindles/axles are NLA. I look at it as stopping a wear point permanently versus trying to source or make new parts later. Same thing with the fan gear and steering gear/dash bushings - the more steering effort, the greater the wear on these parts. I've had to weld up the teeth on fan gears and re-grind them back to the original shape - that isn't a fun job as it's cast steel or sometimes cast iron. Not to mention the amount of time it takes to get it right. The fan gear block is another source of serious wear - most are very egg shaped and can eventually cause the gear to bind and break off teeth. I've had several bored by a machine shop and press bronze bushings into them to correct the wear/alignment. It really is worth the cost/time - it's amazing how much difference it makes in steering effort and removes that nasty slop in the steering. Some tractors that have either just a lot of hours or have been abused by a lack of maintenance can have nearly a full turn of slop on the steering wheel - those are no fun to drive and trying to find better used or new parts can get expensive really quickly. I just figure it's better to cure the wear issue once and be done with it. The upgrades, if greased correctly should outlive you - and possibly your grand children too....lol.

 

Keep this in mind - most people never properly grease these front axles. You can not force grease into the bottom of the spindle bores with any weight on those spindles/tires. You must pick the thing up by the FRAME and allow the axle to hang loose - then, grease the snot out of it. Over time, just doing your maintenance in this manner will prevent a lot of headaches later. I used to work in a diesel shop - BRF can attest to how much fun it is to change spring hanger bushings on front axles in semi's - those things just fight you every step of the way. We always picked the thing up by the frame and at times had to heat the joint with a rosebud to get the grease to flow and push out the hardened junk. Those trucks rode a lot better and didn't wear out those bushings - many other shops never did this and I ended up being the one to change the bushings, which is not a fun job. These tractors don't go down the highway but you'd be surprised at how much they can wear their spindles/center pins and axle castings if not greased properly. Just shooting the thing until it runs out the top is not doing the job - it will egg out the bottom badly and most likely destroy the spindle at the same time.

 

Anyway, rant/rambling off - good luck with your resto. Btw, nice writeup on the axle upgrade - it's nice that someone can show how the simple addition of a bushing can save parts over time.

 

Sarge

[jebbear 377]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

...I keep things for a very long time and use them to their full potential - and beyond.

I hear you there, Sarge! My wife is always telling me why not just throw something away and get a new one. I guess its not in my DNA and still old school to keep and fix things until they are beyond salvation. I always attempt to fix things right to the best of my abilities the first time, & hopefully things will outlive me.

 

What is your opinion on replacing my bronze sleeves? Should I go with a longer bearing (I originally used a 1" length) to maybe a 1-1/4" length on each end to engage part of the spindle shafts that have not seen wear? I have about 2-7/8" total axle casting length to work with, which would leave about 3/8" in the middle to accept grease from the zerk. Not sure if would distribute grease properly, but I could even go full length in the axle casting which would require turning the length down slightly in the lathe to adapt to their stock lengths. Is "Oilite" the way to go as opposed to the general purpose bearing? I see that McMaster lists several different options: SAE 660 leaded bronze multi-purpose (which is probably what I have now); Oilite SAE 841; Ultra-Low Friction Oilite SAE 841 with PFTE; High Load oil embedded SAE 863 (bronze vs. iron-copper); or the multi-purpose grooved bearing which I kind of like since it would probably distribute the grease better, but are a little more expensive. I am not really sure of the listed SAE differences for my application or which would be the most suitable.

 

BTW, I also have the issue you mentioned with the fan gear block and even the center axle pivot pin joint which I was saving for future discussion, both of which I also previously re-bushed. I will post more pix at a later date after I make a decision on these spindles. Sarge, thank-you so much for the input. I read your other post on the D180 axle rebuild and was impressed with the quality and fine craftsmanship. Looks like a class A-1 rebuild!