Thoughts on upgrading 8 pinion diff to LSD or Lock

[Skipper 1,788]

Well if I had to guess, probably because someone at wheel horse felt it was unnecessary, or that it might put more strain on things than they were ready to back with a warranty............... Who knows, But there are tons of items around every one of us, that were also made as a compromise, and not in the ultimate way. That's just the commercial nature of things, and that does not make it wrong to seek improvement

 

Oh and my gut feeling is, that if the spring is compressed just about the same in the 8 and the 10 pinnion diff, the 8 pinnion layout will have a stronger LSD force both static and dynamic. Looking forward to your testing

Edited January 11, 2018 by Skipper

[wallfish 17,080]

3 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Tomorrow I will substitute a junk axle with a nut welded on the end.  then clamping one axle in a vice try turning the axle with the nut using a torque wrench to see how much it takes to make slip.  Also see if there is any grinding.

 

That's sweet if it doesn't grind and certainly the simplest solution if it works

[Sarge 3,463]

If you were asking about possibly using a bevel gear WH differential to try to install a locker into it - no, there is just not enough physical room and carrier itself is the wrong shape to make it work. The locker parts would have to be very small - so small there is no way they could withstand the torque of what a tractor could put against the locker. The design of the tractor transmissions and differentials are very compact and for their size they are extremely strong. About the only other choice would be to use a different transmission setup and separate axle assembly, such as in a truck. That would require altering the tractor to the point of it being completely custom. 

 

I'm not knocking your idea and there is a chance the 8 gear unit could be altered, but not sure how you can get enough strength within the confined space where those gears sit without weakening the bull gear.

 

Sarge

[pfrederi 17,886]

Made a couple of quick vids (my camera only does 30secs).

 

This is an 8 pinion with one of Shawn's new springs inside.  The readings I got are similar to those i got doing the same thing on a 10 pinion.  No apparent clearance issue.   I have watched a couple of youtubes on spring tempering.  May try that on one of the new springs as they do not generate as much resistance as an original albeit worn gouged springs.

 

Any guys here experts on tempering??  Actually any experience/knowledge at all is a lot more than I have.

 

Real test is to put it in a tranny on a worker and see what happens but would rather have a better spring before that much work.

MVI_0131.AVI

MVI_0132.AVI

[sfjohnson722 26]

Chiming in on this thread as well (We should probably pick one to put all our data on)!

 

@Skipper has PMed me some good information on tempering. I just emailed the machinist that made those springs to see if he has the enthusiasm to continue (he does have the ability to temper). If we are looking at 8 pinion mods as well as 10 pinion rehabs, I'd think we may need another spring rate (less pinions, less friction to lock). Skipper, and others who are using their Horse for plowing and hauling rather than mowing, may also want a stiffer diff anyway - this would require some work. Perhaps a first round of engineering with testing like @pfrederi did, and then testing in various transaxles?

[sfjohnson722 26]

Update: the machinist wants another crack at it before he passes it off! I’ll wrangle up the pieces for a spare diff and get it to him early next week. We’ll start with tempering (maybe shoot to go from 25 as is to 100 in-lbs with tempering as pferedi measured for a first target).

[pfrederi 17,886]

The original size of the new springs is probably correct, problem is they bend inward and do not recover.  if he can temper them some they should work great.

[meadowfield 2,595]

On 10/01/2018 at 7:52 PM, Skipper said:

 

Thanks. This is seriously cool, but also out of reach for everyone not being a very skilled machinist with a very well equipped machine shop at disposal.

 

I'm hoping for a solution that would entail a lot less custom work, albeit it will not be possible without a certain amount of it I'm sure. 

 

shucks!  

 

thanks...

 

-------------------------------------

 

A bit late to this, but I went through the same issue of one wheel spinning when I needed them to be locked.

 

If I had to retro fit and keep the 8 speeds (I lost the gearbox on mine, it's tight in there) I would look at doing it externally.

 

The other two ways that were on the list were:

 

1. Add independent brakes on the hubs like a D-series - that way you can brake the spinning wheel

2. Add a pulley to each hub connected to a counter shaft by belts and just tension the belts to lock the wheels. This one is probably easier and can be set to anything between fully locked and some slip.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by meadowfield

[Skipper 1,788]

On 12/1/2018 at 3:16 PM, Sarge said:

If you were asking about possibly using a bevel gear WH differential to try to install a locker into it - no, there is just not enough physical room and carrier itself is the wrong shape to make it work. The locker parts would have to be very small - so small there is no way they could withstand the torque of what a tractor could put against the locker. The design of the tractor transmissions and differentials are very compact and for their size they are extremely strong. About the only other choice would be to use a different transmission setup and separate axle assembly, such as in a truck. That would require altering the tractor to the point of it being completely custom. 

 

I'm not knocking your idea and there is a chance the 8 gear unit could be altered, but not sure how you can get enough strength within the confined space where those gears sit without weakening the bull gear.

 

Sarge

 

I was thinking in the lines of building a carrier from scratch to house the locker

 

Lets see how it goes with the spring LSD solution for 8 pinion trans. If that works good, no need to go down this road.

On 12/1/2018 at 8:02 PM, sfjohnson722 said:

Update: the machinist wants another crack at it before he passes it off! I’ll wrangle up the pieces for a spare diff and get it to him early next week. We’ll start with tempering (maybe shoot to go from 25 as is to 100 in-lbs with tempering as pferedi measured for a first target).

 

Sounds really good, but remember in the hardening process, that you need the tempering afterwards to make sure the spring is softer than the pinion. If that goes well, it should be as simple as selecting thicher raw stock and make more and stronger springs

On 12/1/2018 at 8:11 PM, pfrederi said:

The original size of the new springs is probably correct, problem is they bend inward and do not recover.  if he can temper them some they should work great.

 

They have not been hardened, so yes, they will do that.  Lets cross our fingers that a hardening and tempering will do the trick.

[Skipper 1,788]

1 hour ago, meadowfield said:

 

shucks!  

 

thanks...

 

-------------------------------------

 

A bit late to this, but I went through the same issue of one wheel spinning when I needed them to be locked.

 

If I had to retro fit and keep the 8 speeds (I lost the gearbox on mine, it's tight in there) I would look at doing it externally.

 

The other two ways that were on the list were:

 

1. Add independent brakes on the hubs like a D-series - that way you can brake the spinning wheel

2. Add a pulley to each hub connected to a counter shaft by belts and just tension the belts to lock the wheels. This one is probably easier and can be set to anything between fully locked and some slip.

 

 

 

 

 

Your point one and two has actually already been on the drawing board  And yes, they are solutions to pursue, if a good LSD or Locker is not found for the diff. Racinbob suggested the side breaks to me a while back, and I had the idea floating on doing it with pulleys. So I guess we have had thoughts in similar directions. Hope it means all hope is not lost yet  

[953 nut 55,827]

2 hours ago, meadowfield said:

Add a pulley to each hub connected to a counter shaft by belts and just tension the belts to lock the wheels. This one is probably easier and can be set to anything between fully locked and some slip.

Guess you could spring load the counter shaft to allow some slippage for cornering and a foot peddle or lever with over-center locking to lock it down as needed.

[ebinmaine 68,406]

On 1/11/2018 at 3:10 AM, Skipper said:

Thanks. It might not be rationel, perhaps not even sane, but.......

 

THAT'S a good enough reason for many right there......

[ebinmaine 68,406]

@Skipper

Or others...

Did anyone come up with a definitive answer?

 

[Skipper 1,788]

Hi Eric

 

Well the guy that messed around making springs, I think somewhat in coorporation with pfrederi, promised to share info on the OE spring, after I gave him the basics on the engineering aspects of it. Nothing more happened though, he stalled on it and vanished, hasen't been here since January, and now springs are available at Lowell's. Go figure :-). No info other than it should be same as original. Guess we could ask Lowell to ask his supplier to make some stronger springs for upgraded performance and test that out ?

 

I would have liked to give it a go on the simple spring solution, but I do/did not have an original spring as a baseline, so............ And since they are now available, I doubt many other than myself and perhaps a few others might be interested in upgraded springs or other solutions that include reinventing the wheel, so I think I will let that quest die. On the count of custom made LSD's or lockers, I found LSD core units that could be adapted with quite a lot of work and money. So to keep it realistic, and not just a once in a lifetime foolish quest, I have in fact turned focus on to a simpler approach, albeit not as genuine WH.

 

I am contemplating a hydro sundstrand heavy duty rear end that comes standard with high/low range, turning brakes, awsome speed and diff lock, alternatively the TT equivalents and also newer models K91 or K92, which will do the same as the Sundstrand, just no high/low. Those units are all almost bulletproof, and are to be found in larger GT's, bordering subcompact terretory. They are not rare, and can be had at a small price, compared to making an inferior custom workaround on a WH rear end. But, and yes there is a big but. Those units are of cause not native to WH in any way, so it has me a bit on the fence. Sacrificing some WH identity, and perhaps the right to truly call it a horse afterwards, in trade for a superior setup. The Sundstrand units is kind of in the extended family though, considering the units found on D series, and a few others.

 

I know a rear end does not make the whole tractor, but it is a very central component. Would hate to be kicked out of the clubhouse for wearing the wrong T-shirt 

[ebinmaine 68,406]

Your not wanting to be kicked out of the clubhouse for wearing the wrong t-shirt, so to speak, probably isn't as big of a problem as you think it is on this particular website.

I think even the purists of the brand would be interested to see how you make the improvement that you seek.

 

It seems for ease of the changes your idea of a different axle may be the way.

 

I'd personally be very interested in seeing the above mentioned two pulley set up in use.

 

 

[pfrederi 17,886]

I suppose you can spend a lot of money and time to come up with a stronger better limited slip transaxle.  Every one is always talking about stronger.  i have plowed a lot of heavy snow with my Charger 12  weighted and chained.  She will drag the engine down before she spins out.  Haven't broken any thing yet.  Lowells springs seem to work just fine..  if you really are looking for a bulldozer....

[ebinmaine 68,406]

14 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

I suppose you can spend a lot of money and time to come up with a stronger better limited slip transaxle.  Every one is always talking about stronger.  i have plowed a lot of heavy snow with my Charger 12  weighted and chained.  She will drag the engine down before she spins out.  Haven't broken any thing yet.  Lowells springs seem to work just fine..  if you really are looking for a bulldozer....

Your charger should have the factory 10 pinion LS differential... ?

 

I'm thinking Skipper originally wanted to make an 8 speed 8 pinion open rear axle into LS.

 

I've had great success with the open axle in the Patriot horse moving pretty heavy stuff but every... Once in ... A while... I wish I had both tires grabbing.

 

I'm looking forward to getting the 867 with the LS up and running and see how it goes.

 

 

 

[sfjohnson722 26]

No, I’m still around @Skipper, and kicking this around. Rest assured, I didn’t give ‘your’ ideas to anyone - the machinist couldn’t follow your recipe and did something else on his own. The first round was a total bust. Second round, with an attempt to harden, although seemed promising, never was tested in a tractor to my knowledge. I ended up spending considerable time and money just trying to get the hydrogear back and fixed (3 months, ~$700 and still busted). At $10-15 a spring and only a handful of folks expressing interest, I’d never make back what I had invested in the venture. That and I don’t think the grooves really impact performance.

[Skipper 1,788]

6 hours ago, sfjohnson722 said:

No, I’m still around @Skipper, and kicking this around. Rest assured, I didn’t give ‘your’ ideas to anyone - the machinist couldn’t follow your recipe and did something else on his own. The first round was a total bust. Second round, with an attempt to harden, although seemed promising, never was tested in a tractor to my knowledge. I ended up spending considerable time and money just trying to get the hydrogear back and fixed (3 months, ~$700 and still busted). At $10-15 a spring and only a handful of folks expressing interest, I’d never make back what I had invested in the venture. That and I don’t think the grooves really impact performance.

 

The info I gave you are no secrets. You can find that info many places if you look for it. Newer told you to keep it a secret either. You can give it to whom you like, no problem. I was just having my thoughts do a walkabout on why there was no reply to messages, and info coming the other way. But, lay that to rest. Time has passed, and we have apparently both shifted focus.

 

Not sure what you mean by grooves.

[Skipper 1,788]

9 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I'm thinking Skipper originally wanted to make an 8 speed 8 pinion open rear axle into LS.

 

I've had great success with the open axle in the Patriot horse moving pretty heavy stuff but every... Once in ... A while... I wish I had both tires grabbing.

 

You are absolutely spot on, on all counts

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Interesting!  I have nothing to add but I'm certainly wondering where this could end up!

[Herder 2,354]

We have really invested a lot of thoughts in this one.  I cant help it, I got to through my two cents in.  Try shifting your @$$ from one side of the seat to the other.  If your fat like me it greatly improves traction. No LS required.  

Edited December 28, 2018 by Herder

[AMC RULES 37,134]

  So...that's what happens to all those old  seats.  

[Herder 2,354]

5 minutes ago, AMC RULES said:

  So...that's what happens to all those old  seats.  

Well that's another story, keep in mind it's easier to change a seat.  

[AMC RULES 37,134]

Just  Herder.