Synthetic oil in 8-speed trans ???

[SPINJIM 1,981]

I plan on using my 417-8 speed for winter snowblowing.   The 90w oil in the trans is like molasses in cold weather, so I'm draining it.    I'm thinking of replacing it with synthetic 90w  oil. probably Mobile 1.  Has anyone used synthetic in an 8-speed trans ?    Do I have to flush the trans before using synthetic, or will a little residual dinosaur oil blend in with the 2 qts of synthetic ?   Thanks for any help.

    Jim

Edited December 6, 2017 by SPINJIM

[TimH 105]

I would flush it first and use a multi weight Sin diff Oil like 75 / 90  We put in Lucus But that's what we have here in a 55 gal drum

[squonk 41,369]

I've got synthetic in everything. Flush it to get rid of crud but it will blend with any Dino droppings.  

[Ed Kennell 38,687]

Hey Jim, ya think the  white stuff is coming next week?

What blower do you have on the 417 ?  Does it have electric lift?

I picked up a 417 Hydro at the auction this year that may become my blower tractor if the Onan in my 520 ever craps out.

The only issue I have with the 417 is it is harder to steer than any of my other tractors.  Do you notice this in your 417?

 

 

Sorry if I got a bit

Edited December 6, 2017 by Ed Kennell

[rmaynard 15,610]

This has always been a question in my mind, the use of 90W oil in the manual transmissions. When 10W40 works well in the hydros (transaxle as well as the transmission), why is it necessary to use 90W in a manual?  After all, the owners manual for some of the 60's models stated the use of 40W in the transmission.

[953 nut 55,839]

24 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

owners manual for some of the 60's models stated the use of 40W in the transmission.

I have been running 40W non-detergent oil in several of mine for years. Lets face it, we don't generate enough heat in our manual transmissions to do any harm and either one will become well distributed throughout the gears and bearings.

[pfrederi 17,887]

13 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

I have been running 40W non-detergent oil in several of mine for years. Lets face it, we don't generate enough heat in our manual transmissions to do any harm and either one will become well distributed throughout the gears and bearings.

 

My L107 has run 40w since 1967.  She is used year round, never any tranny issue.  Shifts nicely in the cold

[JoeM 7,874]

Probably not going to be changing the gear oil much this maybe a good multi weather choice? $13.

 

[Sarge 3,463]

The heavier weight 90W oil is designed for a higher sheer strength to protect the gears from wear - that is about all . That said , a good synthetic 75w/90 will easily do the job and make it shift a lot smoother - it's the first thing that gets done any time I've picked up a manual trans tractor and all my old trucks have ran it as well . Made a huge difference in the old Land Cruiser and it's over built transmission - it used to shift like a grain truck on it's best day , a lot smoother now . If the 90w is really old (common) it may take running it for awhile without a load on stands to clean the trans out a bit before draining - most times I'll dump a quart of kerosene or diesel fuel into them to break it up and help drain it completely . Refill , run it a few times and repeat - this will clean out all the cavities in the needle bearings . I generally just take them for a high speed ride for a good 30 minutes in the highest gear to create some heat - it does help .

 

Sarge

[SPINJIM 1,981]

5 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

Hey Jim, ya think the  white stuff is coming next week?

What blower do you have on the 417 ?  Does it have electric lift?

I picked up a 417 Hydro at the auction this year that may become my blower tractor if the Onan in my 520 ever craps out.

The only issue I have with the 417 is it is harder to steer than any of my other tractors.  Do you notice this in your 417?

 

 

Sorry if I got a bit

 

Hi Ed,

I'm hoping that any snow next week can be handled with the plow.   I want to get the snow blower on now, so that I don't have to do it when the temperature is 20 degrees in my unheated garage.   I did that one year, and it wasn't fun handling cold tools and laying on the cold concrete floor.

 

I have my tall single stage blower on a 418A, because I know I can depend on it.    I'm trying a recently acquired used 2-stage on the 417-8 with electric lift.    I'm hoping that 2 lift assist springs will enable the electric actuator to lift it.   Both the 417A and the 2-stage blower are unknowns are far as dependability, so that's why I'm doing two rigs this winter.   

 

I didn't notice that the 417 was any harder to steer than my 418, but I know that the 2-cylinder weight makes it harder than my single cylinder WHs.   I've never tried a 520 with the newer steering linkage.   I put tri-ribs on the front of the 417 to make it steer a little easier, but with a 2-stage on the front, it's still going to be a workout for my arms.   That reminds me, I still have to grease the zerks on the steering. 

 

Have a Merry Christmas, if I don't talk to you before then.    

   Jim

[Ed Kennell 38,687]

I understand not wanting to work in the cold Jim.  This drop in the temperature last night has my knees acting up.

I never noticed the steering being harder in my 520 with the big Onan, but it's been a couple years since I have had to use the blower. 

I also prefer to plow when possible.   I should probably invest in tri-ribs for the blower and plow machines though...it would improve the steering on those tractors.

Wishing you and yours a Merry Christmas and a healthy Happy New year.

Ed & Nan

[WHX?? 49,177]

42 minutes ago, SPINJIM said:

that's why I'm doing two rigs this winter. 

Gotta have a backup Jim ...gotta

[Racinbob 11,234]

6 hours ago, rmaynard said:

This has always been a question in my mind, the use of 90W oil in the manual transmissions. When 10W40 works well in the hydros (transaxle as well as the transmission), why is it necessary to use 90W in a manual?  After all, the owners manual for some of the 60's models stated the use of 40W in the transmission.

That was in a service bulletin (#55) in 1964 and was a band aid to help prevent the transmission from locking up. It did find it's way into owners manuals. Soon, they came up with a much better fix by modifying the shift rails. They didn't change the owners manuals though. My feeling are that the weight isn't all that important especially what these tough little buggers get run on when they are neglected.

[Skipper 1,788]

Sorry for  but this is kind of important.

 

What Sarge says is right on the money, and I feel it is important that everyone is aware of this.

 

The oil provides a film that acts as a barrier so metal do not run directly on metal. Yes that's right, if lubricated right, the metal parts actually do not touch per say. The shear strength of the oil is a measuring stick for how much you can squish that oil film before it breaks up and leaves the metal unprotected. Needles to say there can be really big forces in play in a gearbox, which is why an appropriate oil with a high shear strength is called for.

 

And to be perfectly clear, the shear strength is not in direct relation to viscosity or heat, meaning that a thinner modern gear oil can easily have a way higher shear strength than any old thick dino gue.

 

So before you run engine oil in a trans, I would check up on the properties first, and do your own conclusions. Of cause your usage of the tractor comes into play, and other factors too. Personally I would not run anything but proper gear oil in a trans.

 

To the running a trans on diesel or other "cleaning agents", I also do that, but only with the rear end raised off the ground, so there is minimal forces at play.

 

I will now let the oil nerd back in his cage again ..............

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Skipper

[953 nut 55,839]

6 hours ago, Sarge said:

most times I'll dump a quart of kerosene or diesel fuel into them to break it up and help drain it completely . Refill , run it a few times and repeat - this will clean out all the cavities in the needle bearings . I generally just take them for a high speed ride for a good 30 minutes in the highest gear to create some heat - it does help .

What ever you do to clean out the trans, be sure to jack up the front of the tractor while draining so the internal hump in the transaxle case doesn't trap some of the GOO you are getting rid of.

[Pat_In_Denver 104]

5 hours ago, SPINJIM said:

........  I want to get the snow blower on now, so that I don't have to do it when the temperature is 20 degrees in my unheated garage.   I did that one year, and it wasn't fun handling cold tools and laying on the cold concrete floor.

 

 I put down "play mats" meant for kids to cover 3/4 of my garage floor years ago.  While they don't exactly look pretty now, I can be out there for hours in the winter without my feet getting cold and don't mind kneeling or working on the ground when I have to.  Well worth the $20 investment to cover 16 sq ft of floor.

[squonk 41,369]

8 hours ago, 953 nut said:

I have been running 40W non-detergent oil in several of mine for years. Lets face it, we don't generate enough heat in our manual transmissions to do any harm and either one will become well distributed throughout the gears and bearings.

Exactly Richard, It's not like we're running the Indy 500 with these transaxles!

 

Speaking of shifting, I had an 85 Chevy S-10 Blazer that was a bear to shift into 4wd. The BG rep comes in and I mention it and he gave me a little bottle of extreme pressure lube for boat final drive units at no charge.The transfer case had Dexron in it  and I added the bottle drove about 20 miles and tried putting it into 4. I could engage it with 1 finger pulling on the shifter. 

[rmaynard 15,610]

Not to mention that there are literally 1000's of Wheel Horses out there running with a nice mix of oil and water in the transmission due to bad shifter boots.  So I guess most any weight gear oil is better than that.

[pfrederi 17,887]

I do not doubt that some expensive synthetic will provide excellent lubrication and long life.  But since straight 40 w has kept her running for 50 years  and being a cheap SOB i am sticking with it.  if synthetic makes you feel better and you can afford it go for it!!!  (with 16 horses synthetic is a bit costly as none real get used that heavily.)

[JoeM 7,874]

I am thrifty too!

Reading those posts is amazing and makes me think. That gear box is pretty much straight gearing and no helical gearing. Over built for sure......seeing how many years they run.

We had 1500 HP gear drives at work that ran on transmission fluid, now that I think about it. No issues.

I also think I would rather flush with transmission fluid then Kerosene. Take advantage of the detergents in TO.

Complicated now..........Might have to stick with hydro!

[Cvans 1,009]

The first manual transmission I can remember that recommended ATF was in a Dodge Omni Miser with a VW engine and tranny. I put around a 140,000 miles on it and it still shifted just fine. The linkage was a different story all together. Two shoe laces and a coat hanger would have been easier to keep adjusted. In cold climates I would think the ATF might be a good option in the WH manual tranny. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Cvans

[Sarge 3,463]

It is common I leave things out when giving advice - just too used to doing things in my own way and just get it done - I don't really count the steps per say...just do it ....without thinking so much of those details .

 

That said , YES - if you are going to flush a trans , and you really should if the oil has an unknown age - keep the weight off the rear tires . Just putting it on jack stands ( I lift both ends to keep it level so it oils the parts correctly) with the wheels removed and generally let them run with the axles spinning in 3rd gear . A few rounds of changing and running through all the gears you'll notice a difference quickly - older oils can sludge over time from heat/cool cycles and contamination - this process breaks that up using Kerosene or diesel . I get a really cheap jug of 10W30 motor oil after cleaning the first round , run it a bit and dump that too . I generally run 75W90 synthetic in this type of transmission that is rated a GL-5 type (very high sheer) . All types of Automatic Transmission fluid , be it ATF , Dexron - whatever do not have the higher sheer rating for how the gears/shafts are designed in these transmissions , period . The use of non-helical cut straight gears warrants using something around 40 grade or higher and synthetic 75W90 flows far better than you'd expect , especially with the large gaps in the gear mesh pattern and even how the needle bearings are fitted in the Uni-drive units .

 

You can run basically any weight you want - those that work these things in very cold weather below 20*F would benefit from 40-50 weight oil , multi-viscosity being far better . You never really want to run straight weight oil in them since it cannot flow well enough to keep oil to parts that are moving when cold and that is when you do the most wear damage over time . Same with an engine - use too heavy weight of an oil type and you'll starve it's internal parts when it's cold - unless you use an oil pan heater to keep the oil heated at a higher running temperature . There are GL-4 10W40 oils out there as well as GL-5 straight or 10W50 weight and some even more odd blends for older transmissions . GL-4 is designed for units that use brass synchro rings to prevent damage to them over time - my old Land Cruiser is one of them but that oil works great in old straight cut gear units . The real requirement is that it's shear rated for use in transmissions - straight cut gears are far more demanding to this than helical cut designs . The reason newer transfer cases and transmissions use ATF is due to fuel economy - and far tighter bearing clearances on the shafts . This prevents parasitic drain on the driveline and helps with fuel mileage - my Dodge pickup despite being a 4wd can easily run well over 22mpg on the highway - even in 4wd high range . But , that doesn't mean that oil would work well in an older design - the oil must be matched to the design of the transmission .

 

I have rebuilt manual transmissions in the past that required a GL type oil and someone had switched it to ATF instead - you should see what it does to the internals . Gear teeth faces were spalled and starting to flake off - those highly polished surfaces were blued and the thrust forces were tearing that surface off - no sheer strength in the oil will do that . The last one was a Japanese built 5spd - had to source a donor since far too many of the shaft surfaces were torn and the gears were flaking badly - those are some seriously hardened parts and it was far too expensive to replace half of the internals . The donor had the proper gear oil in it , despite being probably original and high mileage it just needed a few new bearings and a good cleaning - it still runs quiet today with no shifting issues and the engine has been highly modified . The uni-drive is built quite heavy for what it's designed for - that trans should run for 100yrs if taken care of easily - just use the proper gear oil with a GL rating , it's that easy .

 

Sarge

[953 nut 55,839]

19 hours ago, Cvans said:

manual transmission I can remember that recommended ATF was in a Dodge

I had a '96 Dodge Dakota with a five speed that called for ATF in the manual transmission. I changed it a couple of times in the 200K+ miles I drove it and it is still running around town.