Noisy 5xi Two Stage Blower

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

Anybody have some experience with a 5xi two stage snow blower?

 

I picked one up this summer for my 522xi.  It is in really nice condition.  A couple of weeks ago I mounted it for the winter and when I fired it up the chain drive was making a horrible noise, almost screaming, but not like a bearing noise.  When I turn it over by hand I can hear a clicking as the chain moves over the sprockets.  Using a stethoscope, I isolated it to both idler pulleys.

 

What I've done so far.

I checked everything out, no obvious problems.  All bearings and sprockets look and feel good.  With chain off, this thing is quiet.
I replaced the chain, no change.
I aligned the spockets, no change.
I replaced the two idler sprokets, no change.
I replaced the two jack shaft bearings, no change.
I replace the drive sprocket, no change.

 

The auger shaft sprocket, bearing, auger gear box, and auger shaft bearing seem to be good.

 

At this point I don't know where to go next.

Are these things just normally noisy?  My 520H two stage is as quiet as can be compared to this one.

Any thought anyone?

[shallowwatersailor 3,213]

Just a thought. What about the lube in the auger gear box? Being a used piece, did the PO substitute the wrong oil/grease. Does it have yellow metal gears that require a GL-4?

 

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by shallowwatersailor

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

24 minutes ago, shallowwatersailor said:

Just a thought. What about the lube in the auger gear box? Being a used piece, did the PO substitute the wrong oil/grease. Does it have yellow metal gears that require a GL-4?

 

 

I topped it off, Just took about an ounce. So its full.  Is it the right lube,? I'm not sure of anything at this point.

[Dennys502 244]

Is the chain lubed and jack shaft bearings greased?

[JERSEYHAWG / Glenn 4,497]

7 hours ago, Kurt-NEPA said:

Anybody have some experience with a 5xi two stage snow blower?

 

I picked one up this summer for my 522xi.  It is in really nice condition.  A couple of weeks ago I mounted it for the winter and when I fired it up the chain drive was making a horrible noise, almost screaming, but not like a bearing noise.  When I turn it over by hand I can hear a clicking as the chain moves over the sprockets.  Using a stethoscope, I isolated it to both idler pulleys.

 

What I've done so far.

I checked everything out, no obvious problems.  All bearings and sprockets look and feel good.  With chain off, this thing is quiet.
I replaced the chain, no change.
I aligned the spockets, no change.
I replaced the two idler sprokets, no change.
I replaced the two jack shaft bearings, no change.
I replace the drive sprocket, no change.

 

The auger shaft sprocket, bearing, auger gear box, and auger shaft bearing seem to be good.

 

At this point I don't know where to go next.

Are these things just normally noisy?  My 520H two stage is as quiet as can be compared to this one.

Any thought anyone?

Hey Kurt, I didnt know you joined the xi club. I had some experience, but not much, you remember my set up. Best of luck.

 

Glenn

4 hours ago, shallowwatersailor said:

Just a thought. What about the lube in the auger gear box? Being a used piece, did the PO substitute the wrong oil/grease. Does it have yellow metal gears that require a GL-4?

 

 

John, I was just going to post that, good move. There noisey, but not bad at all.

 

Glenn

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

8 hours ago, Dennys502 said:

Is the chain lubed and jack shaft bearings greased?

Yep the chain is lubed,  I even cleaned it in brake cleaner and applied new chain lube.  Didn't help.  The jack shaft bearing are sealed, but the flanges are greaseable.  When I put the new bearings on I lubed up the flanges.  But that gives me an idea to try.  I'm going to loosen up the flanges just a bit an see if that makes any difference.

 

Thanks

7 hours ago, JERSEYHAWG / Glenn said:

Hey Kurt, I didnt know you joined the xi club. I had some experience, but not much, you remember my set up. Best of luck.

 

Glenn

 

 

Hi Glenn,

 

Yep, I joined the xi club last spring.  My 88 520H started having governor problems.  I picked up a 1998 520xi for mower service.  Turned out it had a bad engine, so I put a new one in it.  I fell in love with that thing.  A couple of months ago I found a really nice 2000 522xi, wow is that power steering nice.  I might swap engines and sell the 520xi.  BTW, I did fix the 88 520H. 

I know you've had a lot going on with the new house.  Did you sell that beautiful xi you had.

Kurt

Edited November 25, 2017 by Kurt-NEPA

[JERSEYHAWG / Glenn 4,497]

1 hour ago, Kurt-NEPA said:

Yep the chain is lubed,  I even cleaned it in brake cleaner and applied new chain lube.  Didn't help.  The jack shaft bearing are sealed, but the flanges are greaseable.  When I put the new bearings on I lubed up the flanges.  But that gives me an idea to try.  I'm going to loosen up the flanges just a bit an see if that makes any difference.

 

Thanks

 

Hi Glenn,

 

Yep, I joined the xi club last spring.  My 88 520H started having governor problems.  I picked up a 1998 520xi for mower service.  Turned out it had a bad engine, so I put a new one in it.  I fell in love with that thing.  A couple of months ago I found a really nice 2000 522xi, wow is that power steering nice.  I might swap engines and sell the 520xi.  BTW, I did fix the 88 520H. 

I know you've had a lot going on with the new house.  Did you sell that beautiful xi you had.

Kurt

Kurt, yes, I did sell it. That baby was sweet. The new owner , a new york cop, moved by me, he luvs it.

 

Glenn

[WNYPCRepair 1,918]

Have you checked the weird bushing/bearings at the ends of the auger shaft? They call them bearings, but I would call them a bushing

 

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

1 hour ago, JERSEYHAWG / Glenn said:

Kurt, yes, I did sell it. That baby was sweet. The new owner , a new york cop, moved by me, he luvs it.

 

Glenn

 

You will miss it Glenn.  That was one gorgeous tractor.

1 minute ago, WNYPCRepair said:

Have you checked the weird bushing/bearings at the ends of the auger shaft? They call them bearings, but I would call them a bushing

 

Hi Brian,

 

I have checked them.  They seem nice and tight and quiet.  I plan on replacing them with bearings, but that will wait until warmer weather.  I think I feel a full rebuild coming on this blower.  At least the paint is good, I won't need to do that.

 

Thanks

[emdmat1981 61]

A few thoughts .... but being you've gotten this far and have received such great advice from the experts above .. probably moot points.

 

-ensure you have the right chain (46 links of # 40) and that its routed properly 

-ensure  the large sprocket (attaches to the long shaft that goes to the auger gearbox) bearing is greased.  It has a zerk on it that is somewhat hidden and some of the earlier manuals i've seen do not reference it.

-check chain tension .... deflection should should be between 1/8" - 1/2".  Too tights might make it wine.

 

If noticed some very slight "clicking sounds" too on my Xi driven two stage .... but they seem more prevalent when hand turning the jackshaft clockwise (looking at it if sitting in the tractor seat) ... which is the opposite direction of normal CCW rotation when in operation.   When turning CCW it seems fine.

 

My two stage is a bit noisy too but I just think its the nature of the beast. 

 

On the plus side if you do decide to do a full rebuild you've almost half there already.

 

Best of luck.

Ed

 

 

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

20 hours ago, emdmat1981 said:

-ensure you have the right chain (46 links of # 40) and that its routed properly 

-ensure  the large sprocket (attaches to the long shaft that goes to the auger gearbox) bearing is greased.  It has a zerk on it that is somewhat hidden and some of the earlier manuals i've seen do not reference it.

-check chain tension .... deflection should should be between 1/8" - 1/2".  Too tights might make it wine.

 

If noticed some very slight "clicking sounds" too on my Xi driven two stage .... but they seem more prevalent when hand turning the jackshaft clockwise (looking at it if sitting in the tractor seat) ... which is the opposite direction of normal CCW rotation when in operation.   When turning CCW it seems fine.

 

My two stage is a bit noisy too but I just think its the nature of the beast. 

 

On the plus side if you do decide to do a full rebuild you've almost half there already.

 

Best of luck.

Ed

 

 

 

Thanks for the comments Ed.

 

I do have a new #40 chain on it, but I just copied the old chain, so I'm not sure about the number of links.  Routing is according to the manual. 

I have greased the inpeller shaft bearing and that didn't help

I have played with the chain tension.  I've run it everywhere from loose to tight (1/8" to 1/2") and this thing is screaming loud at all settings. 

 

Since my last post, I pulled the blower off the frame and replaced the impeller shaft bearing.  Inspected the driven sprocket (it is like new), aligned the sprockets using a straight edge.  All of this didn't change a thing.

 

While it was apart the inspected the idler pulleys in the pulley box.  They were all tight and smooth.  With chain off, I checked the jack and auger shaft rotation, everything was smooth and quiet.  Put the chain on and the beast screams.

 

So, none of this helped a bit.  So either I'm missing something or its is the design of this beast.  I'm thinking of trying to alter the geometry of chain drive.  We'll see.

 

For now it is too cold to work on it.  So it will sit this winter out.  I have a two stage on my 520H now and it has a cab -  I just have suffer the winter with it (LOL!).  You are right Ed, I am half way to a full rebuild. My plans are to replace the outboard auger shaft bearing with ball bearing, add a center support to the auger gearbox, and install some impeller paddle extensions.

 

[WNYPCRepair 1,918]

How about the idler sprocket at the bottom?

 

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

5 minutes ago, WNYPCRepair said:

How about the idler sprocket at the bottom?

 

 

Hi Brian,

 

The original idlers seemed fine, but I replaced them with new ones.  Same noise with both.

 

Thanks

Kurt

[JERSEYHAWG / Glenn 4,497]

Kurt, this is a stumper, will be interesting when it's finally figured out.

 

Glenn

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

5 hours ago, JERSEYHAWG / Glenn said:

Kurt, this is a stumper, will be interesting when it's finally figured out.

 

Glenn

 

Sure is Glenn.  I'm missing something. 

[Sarge 3,463]

Might want to inspect the height of the sprocket teeth - if they get worn down too far they get noisy just before failing completely . Also , that chain has to run dead straight - or it gets angry .

 

Sarge

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

Might want to inspect the height of the sprocket teeth - if they get worn down too far they get noisy just before failing completely . Also , that chain has to run dead straight - or it gets angry .

 

Sarge

 

The driving sprocket and idler sprockets are new. I checked the driven sprocket teeth against the new driving sprocket and they are identical.  Next summer, I'll replace that driven sprocket.  I have the four sprockets aligned as best I could using a straight edge.  They are within .020" most of that is from slight angular differences.  One of my theories is that angular error might be the cause of the noise, but there is no easy way to adjust it.  That is also on my list for next summer. 

 

Thanks for the comment Sarge.

 

Kurt

 

[Sarge 3,463]

I have also learned over the years not to trust ball bearings that roll smooth in the hand - I pull the shield off and inspect the rollers visually for any pitting/heat/galling closely . Many times they are pitted but you'd never feel it when rolling it by hand , even using a lot of force . The rpm that those shafts turn and pitting in the bearings will make an amazing amount of racket - and they will eventually fail . It's also not uncommon to find smooth rolling bearings that have little to no grease in them which will lead to a short life span . When those shafts are transmitting the engine's power , the chain's tension and the load generated by the implement it all adds up to a lot of force on the drive system - one bearing that is not up to snuff will howl like nothing else...one of my mule drives was amazingly noisy despite the pulleys turning so smooth , both had bad bearings in them . Same problem with my single stage blower - one of the shaft bearings was horrible and felt just fine by hand .

 

Sarge

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

I've had similar experiences with bearings Sarge.  They feel smooth by hand but howl under load at running rpm.  That why I usually replace questionable bearings.  But I'm running out of bearings to replace.  The idler sprockets are new and I have replaced the jack shaft and impeller cam lock bearings.  The only bearing left are the belt idler pulleys in the pulley box.  They are next.  I'm hoping to find non OEM  pulleys as Toro values them greatly.  Maybe I'll get lucky and figure out a way to just replace the bearings.

 

Thanks and Merry Christmas

 

Kurt

[Sarge 3,463]

Some of those pulleys are spot welded together - a lot of folks just drill out the welds and replace the bearings , then bolt the pulley back together . Almost all pulleys use common bearings so it makes it easier in the future .

 

Sarge

[shallowwatersailor 3,213]

On 12/21/2017 at 3:35 PM, Kurt-NEPA said:

 

I do have a new #40 chain on it, but I just copied the old chain, so I'm not sure about the number of links.  Routing is according to the manual. 

 

 

 

Just another straw to grasp for. When I replaced my #40 chain on my single-stage snowthrower, the old chain was stretched by about 3/4 inch. I counted the number of links and that is what I went with. I also eliminated the Master/Removable link and used a chain breaker instead so that it was a solid chain.

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

19 hours ago, Sarge said:

Some of those pulleys are spot welded together - a lot of folks just drill out the welds and replace the bearings , then bolt the pulley back together . Almost all pulleys use common bearings so it makes it easier in the future .

 

Sarge

 

I checked the parts list, this two stage uses the same idler pulley as the 48 and 52" deck.  I had a old pulley from my 48" deck on  the scrap pile.  Bearings  were toast.  I cleaned it up and them abrasive blasted it to remove the rust.  I was hoping to find spot welds.  But no luck.  The two formed sheet metal halves are welded together at the root of the belt V.  I chucked it up on my lathe and tried to cut the weld out using a cut off tool.  I went as deep as I dared (about .080") and I still can't get the halves apart.  I try some more after the holidays.  Its a challenge to get a cutting tool in there.

19 hours ago, shallowwatersailor said:

 

Just another straw to grasp for. When I replaced my #40 chain on my single-stage snowthrower, the old chain was stretched by about 3/4 inch. I counted the number of links and that is what I went with. I also eliminated the Master/Removable link and used a chain breaker instead so that it was a solid chain.

 

I'm going to pull this blower apart when the weather warms up a bit.  I'll check the link count them.  Can't hurt.  When I duplicated the old chain.  I put them side by side and did not see any elongation of the old chain.  When I turn this blower over by hand, it sure sounds like the chain is clicking into the sprockets.  That means a poor fit to me.  The worst seems to be on the idler sprockets, but that is new chain on new sprockets.  Ugh!

 

I've never tried a chain breaker, I'll look into it.

 

Thanks

[lynnmor 7,302]

A quick test for chain wear and fit is to pull up on the chain where it is wrapped around the sprocket.  The beginning of this video shows what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10ElLuciYhA

[Kurt-NEPA 755]

7 hours ago, lynnmor said:

A quick test for chain wear and fit is to pull up on the chain where it is wrapped around the sprocket.  The beginning of this video shows what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10ElLuciYhA

 

Perfect, I'll check that out

 

Thanks

[Sarge 3,463]

Fitup depth on sprockets is more important than you'd think - as well as chain sizing . I believe there is a size 42 chain - there are ways to measure and figure out what the sprockets require to fit correctly but can't find it now . Perhaps in it's past life someone put an odd sprocket on there with a different spacing than the others ?

 

Sarge