Suburban Tranny Carnage

[Achto 27,815]

While cruising around at a show last weekend the transmission in my rat rod Suburban locked up on me. Granted I've beat on this poor lil thing a lot so now I guess it's time to pay the piper. I really expected to see more catastrophic damage than there was. I thought that I would share a few pics with you.

 

The most damage was on the diff case & gear.

 

The brake shaft has some wear but no broken teeth.

 

There is also some galling on the axle tube where the diff case rides.

 

Time to start parts searching I guess.

 

One question that I have. Does any one know if the axles are hardened? Judging by the indentations from the lock bolts on the hub, I'm guessing that they are not. The reason that I am asking is because I thinking about making new ones.

 

 

[WHX?? 49,177]

No they are not Dan, man with your skills could probably make them toot sweet. @stevasaurus and @Racinbob are gonna want to see this.

[stevebo-(Moderator) 8,351]

7 hours ago, Achto said:

While cruising around at a show last weekend the transmission in my rat rod Suburban locked up on me. Granted I've beat on this poor lil thing a lot so now I guess it's time to pay the piper. I really expected to see more catastrophic damage than there was. I thought that I would share a few pics with you.

 

The most damage was on the diff case & gear.

 

The brake shaft has some wear but no broken teeth.

 

There is also some galling on the axle tube where the diff case rides.

 

Time to start parts searching I guess.

 

One question that I have. Does any one know if the axles are hardened? Judging by the indentations from the lock bolts on the hub, I'm guessing that they are not. The reason that I am asking is because I thinking about making new ones.

 

 

When I was doing a rebuild on mine I could not find any with good tubes. I think if you make extras there would be a demand. Maybe actual plates with new tubes welded on. 

[KC9KAS 4,741]

It is hard telling home many millions of revolutions those have made over the years!

[AMC RULES 37,134]

...and wheelies too.  

[Racinbob 11,235]

As Jim said, the axles aren't hardened. You could make new ones if you can get the keyway milled out or you could just invert them and drill a new hole for the roll pin that retains the axle gear. New axle tubes would be cool but you'd get many more years of service by just replacing the bronze bushings. Come up with a complete list of what you'll need and I'll see what I have left. I do have a few things left for a 5003/5010 transmission but most has been scattered around the country.

[Achto 27,815]

2 hours ago, stevebo said:

When I was doing a rebuild on mine I could not find any with good tubes. I think if you make extras there would be a demand. Maybe actual plates with new tubes welded on. 

 

I'm not sure if I'm going to attempt new tubes yet. The axles on the other hand will be quite easy to reproduce.

 

29 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

You could make new ones if you can get the keyway milled out or you could just invert them and drill a new hole for the roll pin that retains the axle gear.

 

Jim @WHX12 had mentioned the axle flip also. That option is kinda out for me though, as I cut the axle for full length keys on the hub end. This made my hub & axle engagement much stronger in my opinion. I will probably make new axles this time to get rid of the wear on the bushing surface.

[Racinbob 11,235]

Nice! Most definitely stronger. With machining capabilities like that you're all set. I would have liked to do that to my 'B'-160 because the keyways were marginal. I added a second setscrew and I think I'll be ok but this winter pushing snow will tell the story.

[WHX?? 49,177]

He milled a full length key way Bob... nevermind he just threw up a pic! 

 My inboard tubes  were grooved like that so I Just took the sharp ridges off and replaced the bushings. Could a guy cut them off, grind it smooth and weld on a new one? Possible if there is enough room between the side plate and differential  for a fillet weld?? I doubt it... if I remember right the clearance is tight right there with wear marks showing on the side plates. Turn down the sides of the diff. for clearance??  Just thinking out loud here.

Edited August 10, 2017 by WHX12

[Racinbob 11,235]

I suppose it's possible with all the talent here but I think new tubes would be better. There really isn't any clearance for a weld inside. I'm thinking a new tube or tubes with new outer bushings installed, the case assembled and a long 1" round stock all the way through to align things. If you're doing both I would think it would be best to do one side and then grind off the other side and do it. It doesn't take much mis-alinement to bind things up. My 400 was like that too. I did like you with the sharp edges and since it's not a worker I think it will out live me.

[WHX?? 49,177]

 If a guy were try to make new tubes could a guy incorporate bearings rather than bushings? For those high test wheelies!   Just  out loud again here!

[Racinbob 11,235]

The differential housing dictates the OD of the tube. That doesn't leave any space for an axle bearing on the outside, just the bushing. I guess a guy could enlarge tor outer end to accept a bearing. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't been done already.

[WHX?? 49,177]

9 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

enlarge tor outer end to accept a bearing

I was thinking along those lines as well, if a guy had better bearings out there and a guy has to make new axles make longer ones for wider rear end?? Just throwing ideas out there Dan.

[Achto 27,815]

17 minutes ago, WHX12 said:

 If a guy were try to make new tubes could a guy incorporate bearings rather than bushings?

 

That thought was actually going through my head this morn on my way to work. My thought was to shorten the outer tubes and the weld larger diameter pieces on to the outer ends to accommodate bearings. This would cure the outer bushing  & expensive seal issue.

[WHX?? 49,177]

May be go to the 1" x five bolt hub then? I have plenty of those

[PeacemakerJack 10,739]

1 hour ago, WHX12 said:

 If a guy were try to make new tubes could a guy incorporate bearings rather than bushings? For those high test wheelies!   Just  out loud again here!

The early Cubs had bronze bushings in the ends of their axle tubes as well.  When they came out with the 123 hydro, they incorporated bearings on all the hydros.  For an unknown reason to me, they kept putting bushings in the GD rear ends for quite awhile.  Pullers who were weighting them heavy, spinning them fast, and generally putting a lot of stress on them would install the hydro axle tubes on to their GD rear ends.

 

 

That being said, I think that bearings would be a really nice upgrade Dan.  Especially for you, our favorite wheelie puller

My guess is that if you build this rear strong enough, you will at some point turn that predator up even more!!! 

[stevasaurus 22,872]

Grind off the weld on the outside of the plate, replace with new 1" ID stock...weld straight...cut off outer end and weld piece to accept a B-1616 needle bearing.  bearing measures 1" x 1 1/4" x 1".  That bearing is what is used in the #5025 transmissions.  Plenty of pictures Dan as you do it.    Make a jig for he axle tubes because you will be busy.  Maybe @wheelhorseman will buy your jig. 

   @big mike made new axles for his sub a few years ago...he sent me 2 of those axles.  beautiful    He also replaced the axle tubes on his sub, so you will not be the 1st guy doing this Dan.  Mike lives in Niles, Mich. and if he sees this, he may have some hints for us. 

 

Edit to correct new stock from 1" to 1 1/8" ID.....1 3/8" OD stock

[Racinbob 11,235]

Steve, would 1" do it? I don't think it's 1 3/8" OD for the diff bushing to ride on. I was just looking at some sizing charts and didn't see anything that was the proper OD.

Wait, just found some here http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=283&step=2

You could use the .156" thick walls or maybe the .188" if the left over 1" would be OK for the axle. Then do the cut/weld thing on the outer end.

[WHX?? 49,177]

My chart says 1 3/8 x 1 1/2 so the tube it rides on has got to be !.500 minus a tad for clearance. One could carry that size tube to the full length of the axle outside case and then necked down to accept  that 1 1/4 needle?

oops pulled the hammer at the same time Steve!

[Racinbob 11,235]

I believe that 1 1/2" is the od of the bronze diff bushing, 1 3/8" id for the axle tube to ride in.

[stevasaurus 22,872]

Bob is right...and I need a cocktail to settle down.  I deleted my one stupid/wrong post.  The point is it can be done. 

What ever size that dang axle tube is, it goes from one end to the other through the side plate.   

[WHX?? 49,177]

I think you got it backasswards Bob?

1 minute ago, stevasaurus said:

need a cocktail to settle down

five o'clock somewhere

[stevasaurus 22,872]

It is always NOON in the Man Cave.   

 

Dan, just take the plate with you and match up the axle material. 

[Racinbob 11,235]

It's easy to confuse it. My 400 axle tubes are 1 3/8" od. Yup, I had to run out to the garage to check them. I'm thinking that you can't just go anyplace to get the tube. All the standard sizes won't do it and it takes going to a place like onlinemetals to get what's needed.

[stevasaurus 22,872]

@Racinbob here is our chance to engineer that 3 piece trans-axle to accept a 2 piece trans-axle differential and get rid of the bronze bushings once and for all.