C160 Hydro question.

[skippy1969 135]

Hi everyone!

I have a question for you Hydro guru's.

I have a recently acquired 1976 C160 hydro that was sitting for 15 to 20 years in a shed and I got it running very good and I took it for a cruise around the neighborhood and I noticed that the hero seems pretty "lazy.

Its slow in reverse and ok in forward ,but climbing inclines requires 3/4 to full throttle to build up enough pressure to climb in forward, but no dice trying the same incline in reverse.

The hydraulic lift seems to work just fine, fast lifting and powerful.

The hydro oil looks like it needs to be serviced and the filter looks to be an original red WH filter. 

The push valve is stuck,I have it soaking in Kroil right now to see if I can get it to move. 

Any ideas why the hydro seems slow?

Maybe just Service or worse?

Thanks in advance. 

[classicdmax 190]

Do you have the proper amount of trans fluid, if not too it off

is there perhaps belt slippage. Try changing belt

[skippy1969 135]

7 minutes ago, classicdmax said:

Do you have the proper amount of trans fluid, if not too it off

is there perhaps belt slippage. Try changing belt

The fluid shows full on the stick and the drive belt is brand new.

I forget to mention that.

Sorry.

Thanks!

[AMC RULES 37,134]

I'm thinking...

that tow valve might not be all the way closed. 

Wait for the Kroil to do it's thing, then tighten it up, and try again. 

[skippy1969 135]

2 minutes ago, AMC RULES said:

I'm thinking...

that tow valve might not be all the way closed. 

Wait for the Kroil to do it's thing, then tighten it up, and try again. 

OK sounds like an idea. I'll give it a shot after the Kroil.

Thank you! 

[pfrederi 17,895]

You need to run the engine at full throttle (or close) when you have a hydro.  If it is the original red WH filter I wouldn't run it very much if at all until I drained it got a new filter and clean fluid.  If you are circulating crap in your old oil you will quickly do more damage to your hydro.

\What color is the tranny fluid, clear red, clear tan or chocolate milk color?

[Aldon 4,827]

[953 nut 55,874]

      There are several basic maintenance steps that should be taken prior to running it any more. As Paul said a hydro should be operated at or near full throttle for cooling and proper operation. Also, is the hydraulic lift working well?

Your oil should be an amber color, if so then replace it with 10 W 30 motor oil, if it is red then use ATF Dextron, need one gallon. The drain plug is an Allen head recessed plug back near the trailer hitch, you will need a NAPA 1410 filter.

These steps should bring it back to life for you;  if not there could be some acceleration valve springs that need to be replaced (not a big job but you may not need them).

[skippy1969 135]

Update.

I drained the oil out just about an hour ago. It was chocolate milk color when I drained it out.

I only ran it maybe a total of 10-15 minutes before I changed it, mostly to see how the hydro worked and get it warmed up to change the oil.

I refilled it and ran it around the block to see how it worked.

And rechecked and added a bit more oil to bring it up to "full" on the dipstick.

The transmission now seems a bit faster in forward and and a little better in reverse.

I still need to check the "push valve" when it gets loosened up from the Kroil.

I wonder if it will work better the more I run it or????? 

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

      There are several basic maintenance steps that should be taken prior to running it any more. As Paul said a hydro should be operated at or near full throttle for cooling and proper operation. Also, is the hydraulic lift working well?

Your oil should be an amber color, if so then replace it with 10 W 30 motor oil, if it is red then use ATF Dextron, need one gallon. The drain plug is an Allen head recessed plug back near the trailer hitch, you will need a NAPA 1410 filter.

These steps should bring it back to life for you;  if not there could be some acceleration valve springs that need to be replaced (not a big job but you may not need them).

Thank you for the welcome!

Yes,I change it with 10W30 motor oil and changed the oil filter with a Purolator TL14670,mostly because its red,LOL!

If I need the acceleration springs, where can I get them? My Toro / WH dealer?

Thanks very much! 

Edited May 14, 2017 by skippy1969

[953 nut 55,874]

6 minutes ago, skippy1969 said:

chocolate milk color when I drained it

That indicates it had some water in it, you should run it a little and then change the oil again and change  the filter too. When you drain the system you only get about 80% out, the rest is inside hoses and passages so a second change out will get you to 95% new oil. The fact that it showed some improvement is very good.    

[skippy1969 135]

Just now, 953 nut said:

That indicates it had some water in it, you should run it a little and then change the oil again and change  the filter too. When you drain the system you only get about 80% out, the rest is inside hoses and passages so a second change out will get you to 95% new oil. The fact that it showed some improvement is very good.    

Ok thank you,I'll try that then.

[pfrederi 17,895]

I would either get a Toro filter 79-5270 or a wix 51410.  The purolater # you listed comes back as an oil filter not a hydraulic filter.

[daveoman1966 3,762]

I have the exact same C-160 that suffered from the same issues.  It has the Sundstrand piston-to-piston power source model 90-1136.  (There are other very similar Sundstrand models ... 90-1137 and  90-1140.)   Now, not to let the wind out of your sails, but the ultimate solution is to rebuild the hydro pump and mating hydro motor.  This is not a difficult process and, if you know what wrenches are, you can do this.  The problem:  Over the life of 40+ years, the oil gets contaminated either thru neglect or thru misuse of the Parking Brake lever.  Contaminates come from carelessly replenishing the oil and metal chips are introduced by using the parking brake for a PANIC stop maneuver. These contaminants scrape, score, scratch or otherwise damage precision machined brass-to-steel surfaces and the scratches allow blow-by of hydraulic pressure progressively as the operating temperature is reached.

 

Inasmuch as the hydro pump and hydro motor share nearly identical components and use the same circulating contaminated oil, each then requires rebuild for the same reasons described above.  Do not rebuild one without the same applied process to the other.  To do so would defeat the purpose and diminished performance results could be expected.

 

There is a manual for rebuild somewhere on this forum that takes yo thru the process.   Of the utmost importance in ...CLEAN work area... Keep a parts rinse tub at hand (kerosene) and procure some red or green engine assembly oil....NAPA.  You'll also need a 3-piece gasket kit or material to prefab them. 

 

There are a bunch of O-rings and backup rings that MAY need replaced.  Source these thru auto parts stores or hyd repair shops...not sure.  The hydro pump also has 3 seals that should be replaced, just because they are 40 years old.  ....Timken has these seals.

 

 

[953 nut 55,874]

35 minutes ago, skippy1969 said:

If I need the acceleration springs, where can I get them? My Toro / WH dealer?

When I needed some several years ago member @refracman put me in contact with a guy who had them reproduced. If you need them send him a PM and he should be able to hook you up.

As Paul said, wrong filter. Probably no harm for now, but long term an engine oil filter with a bypass could ruin the hydro.

[KC9KAS 4,741]

@skippy1969  to

[skippy1969 135]

3 hours ago, pfrederi said:

I would either get a Toro filter 79-5270 or a wix 51410.  The purolater # you listed comes back as an oil filter not a hydraulic filter.

Not to sound negative, but why does that matter?????

The Purolator filter has a antidrainback valve in it.

It crosses to that number.

Just wondering? 

Thanks.    

[pfrederi 17,895]

2 hours ago, skippy1969 said:

Not to sound negative, but why does that matter?????

The Purolator filter has a antidrainback valve in it.

It crosses to that number.

Just wondering? 

Thanks.    

When it comes to filters there are a lot of threads here about them (and strong opinions).  i am only passing on what seems to be a majority view.  Anti drain back and bypass are 2 different things.

[daveoman1966 3,762]

why buy anything OTHER than an OEM filter.... here it is.  available on ebay lots of places...

79-5270 is the toro filter....for hydros.  

[skippy1969 135]

2 hours ago, daveoman1966 said:

why buy anything OTHER than an OEM filter.... here it is.  available on ebay lots of places...

79-5270 is the toro filter....for hydros.  

Why buy anything but a WH filter. Hmmmm let's see. $18.99 compared to $3.99. For one. And I live 3 minutes from the store I bought the Purolator at. And I needed it now not a week from now,LOL!

[pfrederi 17,895]

You have to wonder about the quality of a $3.99 filter. 

 

Purolator has 4 different numbers for "replacements" for 5990 (so you have to wonder other than size, gasket diameter, and thread size what they look at for "replaceability").  All have anti-drain back valves...which is irrelevant in a hydro system with the filter on the return line.  They also have bypass valves.  Not what you want in a hydro.  if the filter is getting clogged you don't want it to open up and allow more crud to circulate better you system lose power and thus warn you of a problem.

 

[clueless 3,012]

48 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

You have to wonder about the quality of a $3.99 filter. 

 

Purolator has 4 different numbers for "replacements" for 5990 (so you have to wonder other than size, gasket diameter, and thread size what they look at for "replaceability").  All have anti-drain back valves...which is irrelevant in a hydro system with the filter on the return line.  They also have bypass valves.  Not what you want in a hydro.  if the filter is getting clogged you don't want it to open up and allow more crud to circulate better you system lose power and thus warn you of a problem.

 

      Once the push valve is working and it seems to help, you need to change the fluid again, needs to be close to what ever color fluid your using. Then sometime down the road buy the Toro OEM filter (save up). You said the filter that came on it looks like the original, that's 40+ years of uses and neglect, try that with your $4.00 purolator. 

[skippy1969 135]

Thanks guys!

[skippy1969 135]

I'm going to go get a Toro filter tomorrow and change the oil again and see if that helps.

Hopefully it does or I'll probably just sell the C160 and recover some of my money that I spent on it.

Thanks Guys......

[daveoman1966 3,762]

IMHO... The C-160 Auto is one of the BEST ever made and I think you'll regret disposing of it.  The hydro overhaul should not be overwhelming a task...

I'm just sayin'.....

I bought mine in 1978 or 79 and love it....   

[oldredrider 2,549]

While I have "several" Horses, my 160 auto will be the last to go if I have to part company. Probably go with me to the grave.