5003 gaskets

[Racinbob 11,238]

Wow, that hooby dooby fix does look good. The semi trailer will be dropped in our driveway tomorrow. I'm not sure what day I will find the spare parts. There's some bad weather coming in the next couple days so it might slow us down. We can keep the trailer until Monday if we need to.

[john7 162]

2 hours ago, Racinbob said:

Wow, that hooby dooby fix does look good. The semi trailer will be dropped in our driveway tomorrow. I'm not sure what day I will find the spare parts. There's some bad weather coming in the next couple days so it might slow us down. We can keep the trailer until Monday if we need to.

I'm going to put things back together as is for now so no worries at all. Take your time. I figure I'll wear out what I have now.. and I'll have a backup for when the inevitable happens. I'm hoping for a year or 2. But now that I think about it, with my luck I'll need the parts by next week! To think, all of this started with one little oil leak.

On 3/23/2017 at 11:23 AM, stevasaurus said:

Of all the transmissions that I have opened, the bronze in the reverse idler and the cluster gear has never been bad...in fact, those bronze bearings have always been like new.  That needle bearing in the input gear is a different story.  I've had to replace quite a few of them.  I put the gear in a vise and use a small, sharp blade screwdriver to tap into the space between the bearing race and the gear.  The race is thin hardened steel and rips and snaps fairly easily.  Once it does that, it pulls right out. 

By the way, the bearings in my reverse idler and my cluster gear look brand new so I'm going to leave them be. I also picked up a b108 needle bearing but decided not to swap that out either. The one that's in there now is in good shape..  and I feel better when I have spare parts! I can always replace it when I change out the diff and brake gears sometime in the future. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by john7
Outsmarted by technology

[stevasaurus 22,881]

John, that trans may last another 40 years, especially if you are not going to turn over dirt, or slam it into frozen snow banks.  I certainly would not be afraid to mow grass with it, or do regular chores. 

[john7 162]

So I just got done assembling the transmission. Everything went together nicely. The bew bronze bearings are in. I chopped up an extra $2 harbor freight hammer I had to get the axle tube bearings all the way seated. I ground the hammer face down flat so the chamfer wouldn't flare the bearing outward. Worked pretty well.

The hone worked well, but I'm with you steve, I'm too impatient to do that again. It took about an hour to get all 4 to fit nicely.

 

My EE6 bearings and the unground bearings went in without a hassle.

And the thrust washer seems to be doing its job. It lifted the bearing up on the mushroom side just enough to clear the cluster gear bearing on the same side.. so no more grinding on that! 

 

I dry fit it before final assembly and everything fit nicely.

 I did, however have to grind down some of the machinist's work on the hooby dooby on the mushroom side. The mushroom gear was touching it ever so slightly. I told him he could build it up a bit more on the left side but not the right because of that gear... he got the sides confused. No biggy though. 

 

I dressed the gaskets, tapped in some new seals on the input shaft and brake shaft, and got the trans put back together. 

**TADA**

 

All seems well with one exception. I dry fit this thing 6-7 times when honing the bearings and everything turned nicely. It even turned nicely when I dry fit it before installing the gaskets (I torqued side plates to about 7 ft lbs). Now that I have the gaskets dressed and installed and torqued all the way down things seem a little bound up. It has to be the bearings. The gears are turning smoothly and I don't hear or feel any gears rubbing or ginding against anything.

 

To give you an idea of the amount of force necessary to turn the trans while it's in gear... I put the pully back on the input shaft to give me some leverage and I can turn it in all 4 gears with slight force. But I can not turn it by hand without the pully.

 

My intuition tells me that I will probably be okay with it like this. It may just take a ride or two to let those bronze bearings wear in. But I'd like some opinions before I move on to painting. Any thoughts? 

 

And yes, I'm going to paint everything in. I know this may not be the popular approach, or the easiest to deal with if I have an issue down the road. But I do it because it was painted after assembly originally. Well, I can at least say with certainty that it was painted like this before I began the restoration. So, in the interest of maintaining it's originality! And I personally really like the way it looks. 

[slim67 2,735]

8 hours ago, john7 said:

So I just got done assembling the transmission. Everything went together nicely. The bew bronze bearings are in. I chopped up an extra $2 harbor freight hammer I had to get the axle tube bearings all the way seated. I ground the hammer face down flat so the chamfer wouldn't flare the bearing outward. Worked pretty well.

The hone worked well, but I'm with you steve, I'm too impatient to do that again. It took about an hour to get all 4 to fit nicely.

 

My EE6 bearings and the unground bearings went in without a hassle.

And the thrust washer seems to be doing its job. It lifted the bearing up on the mushroom side just enough to clear the cluster gear bearing on the same side.. so no more grinding on that! 

 

I dry fit it before final assembly and everything fit nicely.

 I did, however have to grind down some of the machinist's work on the hooby dooby on the mushroom side. The mushroom gear was touching it ever so slightly. I told him he could build it up a bit more on the left side but not the right because of that gear... he got the sides confused. No biggy though. 

 

I dressed the gaskets, tapped in some new seals on the input shaft and brake shaft, and got the trans put back together. 

**TADA**

 

All seems well with one exception. I dry fit this thing 6-7 times when honing the bearings and everything turned nicely. It even turned nicely when I dry fit it before installing the gaskets (I torqued side plates to about 7 ft lbs). Now that I have the gaskets dressed and installed and torqued all the way down things seem a little bound up. It has to be the bearings. The gears are turning smoothly and I don't hear or feel any gears rubbing or ginding against anything.

 

To give you an idea of the amount of force necessary to turn the trans while it's in gear... I put the pully back on the input shaft to give me some leverage and I can turn it in all 4 gears with slight force. But I can not turn it by hand without the pully.

 

My intuition tells me that I will probably be okay with it like this. It may just take a ride or two to let those bronze bearings wear in. But I'd like some opinions before I move on to painting. Any thoughts? 

 

And yes, I'm going to paint everything in. I know this may not be the popular approach, or the easiest to deal with if I have an issue down the road. But I do it because it was painted after assembly originally. Well, I can at least say with certainty that it was painted like this before I began the restoration. So, in the interest of maintaining it's originality! And I personally really like the way it looks. 

The honing was a task for me to but I wouldnt ever got the shafts to fit. Trans looks great.

[Jake Kuhn 1,556]

Looks very nice John! And that seems pretty typical on it being tight. With a little run time the bushings should wear in and should make it easier. 

[slim67 2,735]

11 hours ago, john7 said:

So I just got done assembling the transmission. Everything went together nicely. The bew bronze bearings are in. I chopped up an extra $2 harbor freight hammer I had to get the axle tube bearings all the way seated. I ground the hammer face down flat so the chamfer wouldn't flare the bearing outward. Worked pretty well.

The hone worked well, but I'm with you steve, I'm too impatient to do that again. It took about an hour to get all 4 to fit nicely.

 

My EE6 bearings and the unground bearings went in without a hassle.

And the thrust washer seems to be doing its job. It lifted the bearing up on the mushroom side just enough to clear the cluster gear bearing on the same side.. so no more grinding on that! 

 

I dry fit it before final assembly and everything fit nicely.

 I did, however have to grind down some of the machinist's work on the hooby dooby on the mushroom side. The mushroom gear was touching it ever so slightly. I told him he could build it up a bit more on the left side but not the right because of that gear... he got the sides confused. No biggy though. 

 

I dressed the gaskets, tapped in some new seals on the input shaft and brake shaft, and got the trans put back together. 

**TADA**

 

All seems well with one exception. I dry fit this thing 6-7 times when honing the bearings and everything turned nicely. It even turned nicely when I dry fit it before installing the gaskets (I torqued side plates to about 7 ft lbs). Now that I have the gaskets dressed and installed and torqued all the way down things seem a little bound up. It has to be the bearings. The gears are turning smoothly and I don't hear or feel any gears rubbing or ginding against anything.

 

To give you an idea of the amount of force necessary to turn the trans while it's in gear... I put the pully back on the input shaft to give me some leverage and I can turn it in all 4 gears with slight force. But I can not turn it by hand without the pully.

 

My intuition tells me that I will probably be okay with it like this. It may just take a ride or two to let those bronze bearings wear in. But I'd like some opinions before I move on to painting. Any thoughts? 

 

And yes, I'm going to paint everything in. I know this may not be the popular approach, or the easiest to deal with if I have an issue down the road. But I do it because it was painted after assembly originally. Well, I can at least say with certainty that it was painted like this before I began the restoration. So, in the interest of maintaining it's originality! And I personally really like the way it looks. 

I reassembled mine about a month ago and mine is on the tighter side to, but it does turn. I'm thinking about doing what Stevasaurus did and running it off another power source ( Steve used one of his tractors in the video) to see how it does. Check that out when you can.

[john7 162]

1 hour ago, Jake Kuhn said:

Looks very nice John! And that seems pretty typical on it being tight. With a little run time the bushings should wear in and should make it easier. 

Thanks, and thanks again for the bearings. 

[stevasaurus 22,881]

John, that trans has nothing wrong with it and it looks like it should be sitting on a coffee table in the living room. 

  I kind of saw something that may be making your trans tight.  In your 2nd picture (one with the bearings in the plates), it looks like your closed bearings are sticking up a touch and not seated flush.  If they are, it could be pinching the shafts and making it hard to turn.  They should be flush in their seats, but not buried.  Sinking them all the way can also make the bearing hard to turn.  If it is just the picture, and they are flush, then the trans will loosen up as you drive it.  Remember, being dry yet will make it tight also.

   Dang that looks nice Mate. 

[john7 162]

Good catch Steve! I pulled everything back apart and had a look. They are flush... now. I think what happened was when I snugged the side plates up and turned the gears a little that those bearings wiggled down a bit. I gave them a couple taps for good measure, and they do turn with no rub against the side plates. 

 

Now that it's back together it still turns with roughly the same resistance. It may be a little more free but I can't really tell. I'm going to say the bronze bearings are a little snug which will hopefully loosen up with a couple laps around the yard. 

 

Primer and paint to come..

[stevasaurus 22,881]

Excellent John!!  You will be fine running it now then.  It is too bad you have to paint it.  WOW 

[john7 162]

Now that I've had a few hours to think about this I have a hypothesis about the trans not turning freely: The thrust washer has pushed the brake shaft gear over just enough to put it in a bind or 'pinch' it between the side plates. 

 

The reasons I think this may be the case are 1) I can freely, and with zero resistance, turn each axle seperately but not together in the same direction. This shoud mean that it's not the bronze bearings. And that it has to be 'upstream' from there. 2) I can only turn the input shaft using the pulley (for added leverage), but not without it. 3) I moved 'downstream' from there to the brake shaft. I placed the same pulley from the input shaft on it and can not turn it with all my might. 

 

These little tests that I did were done in all 4 of the gears with the exact same results. Neutral, however, spins freely and with almost no noticeable resistance.

 

With these results I can start to eliminate potential problem areas. The first one to eliminate is the diff, axles, and bronze bearings. Next, the input shaft and pinion.

 

This leaves the cluster gear assembly and brake shaft gear for the potential problem area. 

 

Besides new bearings the only thing that has changed from before I dissassembled the trans until now is that thrust washer.  

 

Let's say it is the thrust washer... I need it there to prevent the mushroom gear from grinding against the cluster gear bearing.

 

I have 1 idea to solve this. Add a second thrust washer to the cluster gear on the left sideplate. This may unpinch things... but it will also widen the distance between the sideplates..

 

Any thoughts? I am all ears and sort of at a loss. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by john7

[stevasaurus 22,881]

If you used a thrust washer, you should only use one...it should be against the plate, under the bearing in which the large part of the mushroom gear goes.  It should only be about 1/32".  It would have nothing to do with moving the mushroom gear anywhere...it just keeps that bearing from falling in closer to the plate.  Actually, if you got that bearing flush in the holder with the thrust washer under the bearing, you are OK.  Actually, I usually do not put that washer back when I do a trans.  If the bearings are "flush" in their places, the mushroom gear will not rub. 

   As far as the rest of the stuff you were doing, you have to remember that the trans has gear ratios...ie. you can always turn the input pulley, but the gearing makes it almost impossible to turn the brake shaft while in gear.  If your trans is in neutral, it would take a lot of strength to turn both axles at the same time in the same direction.  You should be trying to turn the axles in different directions (while in neutral) to test the axle bronze bearings.  If you want to try something, take out the thrust washer and see if that helps.  If you can turn the input shaft, with the pulley on it and it sounds good...no screatches...you should be fine.  Do you have any oil on any of the gears yet??

[john7 162]

I wound up ditching the thrust washer. It was, in fact, the culprit. The mushroom gear doesn't seem to touch the bearing and bearing cup for the cluster gear. This could be from the new, tighter fitting bronze bearings, or that damage could have been from hard use 50 or 60 years ago... Either way it doesn't appear to be an issue at this point.  Here's the pic again of the damage that we were hoping the thrust washer would help avoid.

 

I have it back together and will be spraying primer this morning. 

[stevasaurus 22,881]

John, it is the worn bearings that let that large gear rub on things in the case.  New bearings equals no rubbing.    Post some pictures of it painted. 

 

[john7 162]

Primed

...

 

I know it's off the transmission topic, but I had a couple other parts I wanted to do while I had the whole spray gun setup out and the garage lined with plastic..

 

Wait to dry, sand, and then spray with color!

 

To be continued...

[WHX?? 49,189]

Your thread John  so you are allowed to post & steal your own thread with cool primer pics......we lIke seeing that 'cause the next step is RED....it doesn't take much to trip our hammer around here! I agree with Steve on the coffee table piece tho, now you know why he is our resident 3 piece expert!  Very nice work fer sure .... triple 

[WHX?? 49,189]

This pic is the bomb

On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 8:49 PM, john7 said:

I chopped up an extra $2 harbor freight hammer

Some tools must die so others may live!

[john7 162]

Ha! Whatever works, right?

 

I've accumulated a few tools made just for my RJ.

 

There's more but they are in a chest wrapped in plastic at the moment while I paint.

 

I have to say that Stevasaurus's carriage bolt idea has been the most handy so far! 

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,881]

Hey John...I was over at my Mom's yesterday looking for wire to fix a few things with my 876,,,and guess what...i found a puller over there just like the one in the top of your picture above.  You can flip the ends on it to make it work better.  Very cool.    I think it is the same one. 

[john7 162]

I bought a harbor freight cheapy because I had to do some grinding on the little 'claws' to get it to fit between the flywheel and the crank bearing plate. It still makes me EXTREMELY nervous.. I'm afraid I'm going to snap or crack the cast flywheel. Those thing get stuck on there pretty good. I soak it in a penatrant and tap it with a mallet while tightening the puller.

[john7 162]

Finally, some color !!! The pictures make it look a bit orange, but I assure you it is deep deep red IH-50. 

 

 

Still VERY wet in these pics.

 

As far as finished durability and appearance goes, I LOVE this paint. The biggest downside to it is that it takes 7 days to cure. *7 Days*!!! 

 

The trans came out beautiful, and since it's cast I won't do any color sanding and buffing. I did have a snafu with the blower housing, though. A fly landed right above the word Kohler. Other than the hood this is the most visible 5 square inch area on the whole tractor!! Murphy had to get one more over on me I guess.. 

 

I'll post some pics next week when I get it back on the RJ.. and let yall know how the trans is working out.. 

[Racinbob 11,238]

The good news is that our internet is finally working again. No more phone crap. Also good new is that I found the box the tranny parts are in. Well, the bad news is that the only differential I have left is for a 2 piece. Thinking back the differential I had for a 3 piece was the one in another thread where I made a modification enabling splined axles to be used in the older differential. I remember un-converting it and sending it to another member here. Sorry John.  But I must tell you that you are doing an outstanding job on that.  

[slim67 2,735]

On 4/7/2017 at 6:01 PM, john7 said:

Finally, some color !!! The pictures make it look a bit orange, but I assure you it is deep deep red IH-50. 

 

 

Still VERY wet in these pics.

 

As far as finished durability and appearance goes, I LOVE this paint. The biggest downside to it is that it takes 7 days to cure. *7 Days*!!! 

 

The trans came out beautiful, and since it's cast I won't do any color sanding and buffing. I did have a snafu with the blower housing, though. A fly landed right above the word Kohler. Other than the hood this is the most visible 5 square inch area on the whole tractor!! Murphy had to get one more over on me I guess.. 

 

I'll post some pics next week when I get it back on the RJ.. and let yall know how the trans is working out.. 

All flys must die

[john7 162]

5 hours ago, Racinbob said:

The good news is that our internet is finally working again. No more phone crap. Also good new is that I found the box the tranny parts are in. Well, the bad news is that the only differential I have left is for a 2 piece. Thinking back the differential I had for a 3 piece was the one in another thread where I made a modification enabling splined axles to be used in the older differential. I remember un-converting it and sending it to another member here. Sorry John.  But I must tell you that you are doing an outstanding job on that.  

No biggie. Thanks for keeping me in mind! 

 

And thanks, so far I'm happy with how it's turning out. But I won't really know until I get some oil in it and take it for a lap or 2. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by john7