5003 gaskets

[john7 162]

I'll get ahold of Larry tomorrow. Waiting on a reply from Jake Kuhn first though.

 

I've been thinking about bearing manufacturers for a while now, and these bearings are almost too difficult to find to complain about brand. But, I replaced a few of the bearings in the trans last summer (with some cheap china stuff I can't wait to replace) and the bearings that I pulled out of it were Nachi EE6. My dad swears that the transmission was never opened during it's life, which explains why there were the WH part# 1232 seals installed in the axle tubes and not the cap seals. But more importantly, I'm lead to believe that Wheel Horse installed these bearings back in '58. Nachi had been around for 30 years by the time the RJ58's were being made so this is entirely possible... I think. If this is the case and they lasted almost 60 years (probably 30 of actual hard use), then I'm definitely inclined to use them again. They are also fairly inexpensive!

 

I wasn't going to bring this up but since we already have the conversation going... I noticed in the parts diagram that there are 2 more bronze bearings in the 5003. 1 inside the reverse idler gear (ref. 92 on parts list) and 1 inside the cluster gear (ref. 93). Have you ever needed to replace either of these? Also, how about the needle bearing inside the input gear? I'm not sure how I would ever get that thing out!

[stevasaurus 22,881]

Of all the transmissions that I have opened, the bronze in the reverse idler and the cluster gear has never been bad...in fact, those bronze bearings have always been like new.  That needle bearing in the input gear is a different story.  I've had to replace quite a few of them.  I put the gear in a vise and use a small, sharp blade screwdriver to tap into the space between the bearing race and the gear.  The race is thin hardened steel and rips and snaps fairly easily.  Once it does that, it pulls right out. 

[john7 162]

I'll have a look at the other bronze bearings when I open it all up. Hopefully they are in good condition. Based on what you say I'd bet they'll be good to go. The first time the trans was opened was 58 years after it was made and it was beautiful inside.. no rust and hardly any build up.

 

The only wear that I recall that would raise concern was some pretty heavy wear to the teeth on the brake shaft... the ones that make contact with the differential. I'll have a another look when I pull it back apart.. if it's bad enough I'll see if I can get a machinist to build it back up and re-cut the teeth. That is if he doesn't want copious amounts of my money to do it!

 

And since you say the needle bearing in the input gear isn't too difficult to swap out, I'll just go ahead and change that as well. 

 

Thanks for guidance. 

 

By the way, I left a message for Larry.. I'll give him another holler later today. 

 

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,881]

Excellent...BTW, you mention the teeth on the brake gear.  That does happen to be a weak spot on the early RJ transmissions, and sense you have an early one, I am betting if you count those teeth...you will count 8.  I just went through this with another member in another thread.  The brake gear came with 8 teeth early and the 11 teeth later.  If you go to swap out that gear, you either need to get another gear with 8 teeth...or if you get one with 11 teeth, you will need to change out the differential gear to match it up.

Here is the link...

 

[john7 162]

Now that you mention it, I vaguely recall reading something about that back in 2015 when I did a full restoration. I didn't read much into it. I'm sure it was one of those days when I spent a full work day reading through forums.. for the reminder and the link to that thread. Another piece of knowledge to keep in mind!

[john7 162]

Did you ever get a chance to look at the 1502 bearing? The Nice #: SRM125208BF18? I know the sizes are correct, but it says the type is "unground full compliment". Not sure about the full compliment part... Tried reading up on it and I'm not sure what it means. It doesn't seem like it will have an adverse effect on the trans, I just don't know if this would be better, worse, or the same as the "OEM" bearing.

 

https://www.mscdirect.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/details/59145128

 

A little pricey at $13 a pop + shipping.

[stevasaurus 22,881]

Have not had a chance...I will have tomorrow. (Friday)  I can tell you this to think about.  If you are going to use this horse and work it, I would put in the correct bearings in the right places.  If you are going to just ride the grand kids around, and go to shows...any bearing the right size should work for you.    I'll check out those bearing links tomorrow.

[john7 162]

So, I have all the general rebuild stuff on order and thought I would get a jump on getting things pulled apart, bearings removed, etc.

 

Well, Murphy paid me a visit. I have several issues and I've been thinking about how to get them back to a like new or better condition all day. I have a few ideas, but I wanted to run my issues by those with experience first to see if there are some better solutions out there. 

 

Everything is apart minus the reverse idler and the shift forks and rails. So far I have 3 issues.

 

1) My bronze bearings were toast. No prob - easily replaceable. But the surfaces they were in contact with are also toast. I'll just flip the axles. But the bronze bearings that are inside the differential have chewed the outside of the axle tube up pretty bad. 

-Right Side

-Left Side

How can this be repaired? Or well, can it be repaired? I'm thinking either try to turn it down smooth and get bronze bearings with a smaller ID... maybe 1 5/16" instead of the 1 3/8". Or maybe replace the axle tubes.. which I'd really like to avoid. I strive to keep as much of this original as possible! Any ideas?

 

2) The mushroom end of the brake shaft gear had some alignment issues and chewed a nice little notch through the bearing and the bearing 'cup' for the cluster gear shaft on the right side plate.

Has anyone ever seen this before? I'm thinking a simple shim or thrust washer for the brake shaft gear to move it over just enough to clear the new bearing I will be putting there. Does anyone have a thrust washer on the right side plate brake shaft gear? I do not, and this may be the issue. But if no one else has one there my adding one may cause some unwanted binding or misalignment of things. Not real sure.

 

3) I have some nice size chips and heavy wear on the diff gear and the smaller 8 tooth side of the brake shaft gear. 

I'm not sure what a worn out one of these should look like but this strikes me as needing some attention. Thoughts?

 

 

[WHX?? 49,189]

On the differential bushings John mine were like that as well. Steve says put in new bushings and take the high points off the backside of the axle tubes with some crocus cloth so that's exactly what I did. My tractor is just goint to be for tub rides & shows anyway. On the diff gear yes they are quite worn & I would try to look for a donor transmission. If you can't find one maybe just smooth them out with a fine stone and run them but her working days would be over. By the looks of the rest of the tractor you might be using it for just play anyway. I would also guess you could shim that for clearance & will be looking forward to @stevasaurus input on your dilemma.

 

I don't know if it will help but here is my resto on a three piece, tranny work starts on p 2 post 47

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/57982-dennys-free-suburban-work/?page=2

 

[Racinbob 11,238]

I'm with Jim on the axle tubes. Just put in new bushings and you'll be good to go. I would look for some replacement gears. I may have what you need. I sent a differential out but I don't remember if it was for a 3 piece case or 2 piece. I had both. Unfortunately I won't be able to check for a while. We have everything packed in a semi trailer sitting in the driveway awaiting the trip back to Indiana.

[john7 162]

About the diff bearings. An issue I have that I didn't mention in my previous post is that the diff gear has been rubbing against backside of the trans case.

 

If you look back at the pic of the diff gear in my previous post you'll see that the tips of the teeth are worn also. Now that I've dissassembled the diff, axles, gears, and removed the bearings I can see that the bearings in the diff had been ground down as thin as a sheet of paper (don't have micrometer to be exact). This, coupled with the wearing of it's respective axle tube contact surface, has created enough slop to allow the diff to wobble and rub the case. 

 

These are both diff bearings side by side.

 

Notice the one on the left is half the thickness. Well, the one on the left is the bearing that would be on the right side plate, which explains why the axle bearing on that side was so much more worn than the left one, which explains why I was leaking oil on that side, which is why I took this thing apart in the first place!

 

This all leads me to believe that it's of high importance to maintain the best and tightest possible surfaces between the 4 bearings and their contact points. 

 

I'm going to try and turn the axle tubes down to 1-5/16" (just the portion inside the trans). Then order the CB 2124-14 cast bronze bearing with the 1-5/16 ID.

 

 

One last thing. I can't find a shim/thrust washer anywhere online. Anyone know where I can get a couple?

 

Thanks!

Edited March 27, 2017 by john7

[stevasaurus 22,881]

The axle bronze is no problem and fliping the axles is easy...1/4" hole set back the correct distance from the end.

   The differential carrier bronze is like Jim said above.  Just sand down the high spots and oil well...put the new bronze in the differential and good to go.  Alternatives are spray welding and getting it turned and, like you said, replace the axle housing.

   The mushroom gear thing...replace the bearing...clean up where it is worn on the side plate and put a thrust washer under the mushroom gear.  These transmissions usually have a thrust under there anyway.

 

   I don't see too much wrong with your bull gear.  Your mushroom gear is OK, but those nicks could be welded and filed down.  If you decide to replace the mushroom gear, make sure the one you buy has the same amount of teeth on the small part of the gear.  It is either 8 or 11 teeth.  You need the same amount. 

 

You are right about the slop causing the differential to hit the side of the case...the mushroom gear had a lot to do with that also.  Turning that part of the axle tube and the thicker bronze should help to fix that problem.  Take a good look through the different boxes at ACE Hardware...they have thrust washers.  You should also be able to get them from TORO.  The one in the picture is about 1/16".    TORO part #9547.

Edited March 27, 2017 by stevasaurus

[john7 162]

Well apparently I was a little ambitious with the things I was looking to do. As far as the axle tube wear, he made 3 suggestions. 1) turn it down just until the wear was gone and then he would make custom bronze bearings for them (This cost as much as a weekend vacation), 2) Sleeve it and turn it back down to 1-3/8 (This cost as much as an overnight vacation), or 3) clean it up and roll with it like you all here have suggested (This cost as much as a snickers bar). Option 3 it is. As for the diff gear.. The machinist wanted $600 to rebuild and cut new teeth.. which by the way are 6dp - diametrical pitch teeth. Don't think I'll be doing this any time soon. However, I found out that the differential case is cast steel. Which explains the heavier wear on it than on the brake gear made with hardened steel. With that being said, I read in one of Steve's threads that in some of the differentials that the gear was removed/cut from the housing and a new gear would be bolted on... were these hardened steel? or cast? I'm thinking that finding another diff housing will be much cheaper and a quicker, easier fix. But, if I can't find one, maybe I have my machinist remove the existing gear so that we can bolt another on. This is of course if I can find one of those gears with the old style teeth (I don't know if they exist). I'm open to any ideas about this.

 

The worst part is that on the original parts list the differential housing & gear was $14.50 and the side plates were $8.40 a piece. What I really need is Doc Brown, Marty McFly, a DeLorean, and a wad of cash... I'd make sure no one here hurt for parts again!!

 

At-any-rate, does anyone have a lead on a diff housing and brake shaft/mushroom gear? Any help is GREATLY appreciated! @Racinbob, please holler at me whenever you get the time to dig through your trailer for that diff gear.

 

And thanks @stevasaurus for the washer part number!

Edited March 27, 2017 by john7

[Racinbob 11,238]

You got it John. But keep in mind that the trailer is a semi trailer that now is home to all of our belongings. I called ABF today and scheduled for them to pick it up Wednesday. We'll be at our new home Friday but they have 3-5 business days to deliver it so it won't get there until next week. Then it's unloading time and getting settled in. 

In any case I think you're on the right track with this now. The wear on your bushings is very typical as was the markings inside the case due to the wear. As soon as I find the box they are in I will let you know what I have. You have a great thread going here and I'd really like to help you out. 

 

 

 

[john7 162]

Thanks, I feel like I've read every thread on here about this transmission 100 times over. But reading about it and doing it are 2 different things. And I'm finally getting to that age where I know that I don't know everything anymore! And the last thing I want to do is destroy this extremely sentimental 'family heirloom of sorts' because I missed something that could have been easily handled by learning from the knowledge and experience of the people here. 

 

So reading over the other threads was like the 'Intro to RJ Transmissions', and this is more like 'Intermediate RJ Transmissions' with a lab! 

 

Thanks again for the help. 

[stevasaurus 22,881]

John...do me a favor an put some more pictures of your differential and bull gear and your mushroom gear.  They do not have to be close ups.  Show all the teeth at once, not one at a time.    I'm looking at the picture you took of your differential housing with a few teeth, and I don't really see much wrong with it.  A few more pictures please. 

    BTW, I like your cents, since, sense of humor...it's a good thing to have with these early horses. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by stevasaurus

[john7 162]

Here are some pics of the gears.. and a video. Let me know if you'd like a few from other angles.

It looks like the link is working properly, but let me know if it doesn't play for any reason. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by john7

[slim67 2,735]

On 3/27/2017 at 2:34 PM, john7 said:

About the diff bearings. An issue I have that I didn't mention in my previous post is that the diff gear has been rubbing against backside of the trans case.

 

If you look back at the pic of the diff gear in my previous post you'll see that the tips of the teeth are worn also. Now that I've dissassembled the diff, axles, gears, and removed the bearings I can see that the bearings in the diff had been ground down as thin as a sheet of paper (don't have micrometer to be exact). This, coupled with the wearing of it's respective axle tube contact surface, has created enough slop to allow the diff to wobble and rub the case. 

 

These are both diff bearings side by side.

 

Notice the one on the left is half the thickness. Well, the one on the left is the bearing that would be on the right side plate, which explains why the axle bearing on that side was so much more worn than the left one, which explains why I was leaking oil on that side, which is why I took this thing apart in the first place!

 

This all leads me to believe that it's of high importance to maintain the best and tightest possible surfaces between the 4 bearings and their contact points. 

 

I'm going to try and turn the axle tubes down to 1-5/16" (just the portion inside the trans). Then order the CB 2124-14 cast bronze bearing with the 1-5/16 ID.

 

 

One last thing. I can't find a shim/thrust washer anywhere online. Anyone know where I can get a couple?

 

Thanks!

if you read my thread, youll see mine was and probably is worse than yours. 

[stevasaurus 22,881]

John...thanks for the pictures and the video.   You have the early version of the mushroom and differential.  Wheel Horse changed both of those parts out in about 1 year because the teeth would wear fast.  They went to a mushroom gear that had 11 instead of 8 teeth, and they changed the bull gear differential to have more teeth also ( I think 44).  I think your bull gear is as good as it gets, for getting a used replacement, and is in good shape.  Obviously, the mushroom gear has some issues.  Filling those nicks with weld and filing down would be the way to go.  Actually, I think you would be OK with it the way it is...knowing that you are going to be careful and keep a good eye on the oil and bearings.  I'd wait to see what RacinBob comes up with.  Your choice is to get a different mushroom gear (8 teeth)...use the one you have.......or update to the newer 11 tooth mushroom gear along with the newer 44?? toothed differential housing.

[john7 162]

In a perfect world I'd mosey on down to the wheelhorse dealer and get an 11 tooth and a 44 diff for all of the reasons you've stated. More teeth=more contact surfaces, which=less wear and risk of failure. I am most certainly open to buying the 11/44, that is of course if someone has one they wouldn't mind parting with. 

 

After reading your post, steve, about probably being okay to use it as is.. I think that I will go ahead and install the new bearings (bronze and radial), put the gears back in as is and reassemble. This way I can get the RJ back up and running in time for mowing season. In the mean time I can start the search for the 2 newer, and better, style gears. I'm not sure where to start the search, though. Possibly someone in this thread has some ideas? Certainly you, Steve, may know a few folks. But I will also post in the wanted. 

 

Living in west texas doesn't help finding these parts one bit, either.  I met an 87 year old machinist the other day here who knew what a wheel horse was! I was floored. That's the first time I've ever met anyone here who has even heard the two words, "Wheel Horse".

 

Any how, thanks for the thoughts once again. 

 

One quick question before I wrap this up. Do you see any reason that the reverse idler gear can't be flipped around? The teeth are ground a bit on the side where it is put into gear...

[stevasaurus 22,881]

The manual says the chamfered end of the reverse idler goes toward the left side plate.  Brake shaft side.  I would leave it like it is and look for a better one.  It has to do with ease of shifting...if it is the same on both ends...flip it. 

   I like your thinking on the trans.  Here is what I would do.  Take good pictures of all the gears...including the reverse idler.  That way you will have something to compare with as you search for parts.  Your transmission, for it's age, is in really good shape.  Go a head and put it together and start your search for the parts you want to change.  I would ride that horse until I knew I had to go back in there again...could be another 40 years, but now you have the parts.  I would still see what Bob has in a few weeks, place a want ad here and keep an eye on the for sale section. 

   We have a few members here that I would contact and ask them to help me keep an eye out for the parts I was looking for.  They might even have or know where to go also.  @Jake Kuhn   @Lane Ranger   @Racinbob  now that he is in Indiana.   @smokin joe     Send a PM to @Texas Todd...he has a contact in Oklahoma that might have a trans.  Lastly, don't wrap up this thread just yet.  post pictures as you put your trans back together.  More members will see this thread and one of them may be able to help you.

   Remember, if you find a mushroom gear that has the 11 teeth, you will need the differential case that goes with it.  The pinions and roll pins are the same. 

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by stevasaurus

[john7 162]

Alright, I'm back at this transmission now. Had to take a little R & R over the weekend.

 

My weekend off was prompted by a couple boo boos I had with the transmission last week... Where your frustration was most likely going to get the best of you type things. I broke 2 of the little hooby doobies (as steve called them) off. 

I dropped the case off at the machinist on friday for a fix job while I took my frustrations out on the bikes. I was half listening to the guy and half day dreaming when he told me what he used but I think he said silicon bronze.. not 100% on that. I do know that whatever he used he used it because he wanted it to be stronger than the casting so that I would have less of a chance at breaking it again. Also, him, along with this old timer there, said it was almost impossible to tap it because it was so hard.. apparently ruining a couple of taps. Anyway, this is what I got back from him:

Now that this is fixed and I have all the parts I'll start putting everything back together.

 

I have 1 question before I assemble things. @stevasaurus you showed me where 1 of the thrust washers goes a few posts back. Where does the other go? I'm assuming it goes where I've circled since no where else makes sense.  But I wanted to double check before I put this back together. 

 

Thanks.

[stevasaurus 22,881]

You only need one thrust washer, and that goes under the large part of the mushroom gear.  The fix on your case looks outstanding.

[john7 162]

Okay cool. I'm going to get this thing buttoned up hopefully today.

 

And for what it cost it oughta be outstanding!!

 

Here's a look from the inside.

[stevasaurus 22,881]

Take a few pictures as you go.