electric pto clutch

[js5020 111]

The electric pto clutch on the 16 Auto quit towards the end of the day on me.  It seems to be a wiring issue inside the clutch.  Can this be disassembled and repaired or is replacement required?  If replacement anyone know the part #?

[bmsgaffer 2,045]

I believe the older model's electric PTO is No Longer Available. Someone in the vendors section may have a good used one. Often I have seen people switch back to the manual PTO. 

 

The clutches are usually a sealed system and without some serious work and tools you wont be able to repair much. However, I would check your battery and regulator as the electric PTO will be the first thing to quit with a low battery (often the tractor can keep running until the battery is very low). The simplest fix maybe to just charge up the battery!

 

I know you can check the PTO clutch by measuring the resistance of the coil (across the two wires while it is disconnected), but I don't know what the resistance specification is. Hopefully someone will be able to chime in here with their experience.

[Ed Kennell 38,595]

I don't know how to check them either, but my understanding is also they are not repairable.

@A-Z Tractor  may have a good used one.

[daveoman1966 3,758]

I have the same tractor as you C-160 auto with Elect PTO and have had similar issues.  CHECK: 1) blown fuse 2) Key in "on" popsition 3) test clips at PTO wire...it should SNAP when POS and NEG wires are touched at the PTO.

If the El PTO doesn't SNAP at all, probably broken wire in coil.  It MAY be broken off with just a little bit of wire showing and that can be soldered.  CASUTION on removing the PTO.  Don't try toi use a puller of any sort.  There is a special way to remove it.  Use a bolt as shown in these pics and thread into the center of the PTO.  That bolt will jam against the crankshaft and force the PTO.

There is a thread either on here or on Youtube on how to REWIND the field coil...not too much to it.

If you find a PTO on Ebay to fit the 1" crankshaft, the field in it is the same as for yours (for a 1 1/8" crank).      

[js5020 111]

Thanks for the helps guys.  I know it's in the coil, it wouldn't engage at one point yesterday and I ran it back to the shop and if I pulled on one of the wires that runs into the coil it would close.  I also found out my charging system isn't working yesterday, did just what was said,,,, for no reason the pto just shut off, back to the shop and figured out the battery was very low.  Recharged the battery and it was back working until the coil wiring gave up.

[daveoman1966 3,758]

If the wire is broken very close to the housing, you MAY be able to CAREFULLY solder a repair connection.  Once that repair is made, drip some epoxy cement onto it to keep it from wiggling and breaking loose again.  Just a thought....

[js5020 111]

Well the wire isn't broken, however with the key on and the pto switch on if I pull out on one of the wires it will close.  Let go of the wire and the clutch opens so something is up inside the coil housing?

[daveoman1966 3,758]

If there was something 'up' inside the coil housing, it would not work at all.  You have an intermittent short.  Where is it that you 'let go of the wire'...  at the housing, or back at  the switch, or at some midway point.  OR...is it at the CONNECTOR where you pull on the wire?

 

[js5020 111]

It is at the housing.  Your right it shouldn't work at all.   Maybe I should recheck the short wiring harness and connector.

[js5020 111]

Well went out and rechecked and it will only pull in if I pull on the wire.  I went as far as cutting off the original plugs and putting on new ends, no joy.  Cut off the wires as close to the clutch as I could repair+ replace the wires (to eliminate possibility of broken wire), nope still have to pull out on the wire.  I have to assume (since I have never seen how it connects) its the connection inside? or is it continuous thru the coil?

[953 nut 55,729]

Read over this thread, you may be able to solder it better if it on the work bench rather than the tractor.

 

[daveoman1966 3,758]

Apparentl;y one of the two wires is getting shorted out when you puill on it....or it is shorted out, and pulling on it eliminates the short.  One of the two.  Very difficult to diagnose from here

  

Do your have any shrink tube?  if so, slip a 3" piece of it over each wire (not together) and push the shrink tube into the housing as far as possible.  Then, shrink back to the end where the connector clip is.  That MAY provide enough insulation at a suspicious short-out point at the housing.

 ps...use the smallest shrink tube you can find to snugly fit over the wire....use 3 or more inches on each wire.

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by daveoman1966

[953 nut 55,729]

6 hours ago, daveoman1966 said:

one of the two wires is getting shorted out when you puill on it....or it is shorted out, and pulling on it eliminates the short.  One of the two.

 

                 If the wire was shorting out the fuse would blow (or if the fuse was bypassed you would have Magic Smoke). One of the wires is making a poor connection and needs to be soldered.

[js5020 111]

Well today we should have the upper hand on storm clean up, unless the elderly neighbors 1000' drive drifted shut again.  With the blower being down I had to clear the drifts with her Kubota bx25 and loader, slow but it worked,,, got it stuck after I got off the drive and stuck the quad trying to clean out around it.

 

Anyways I will need to get a pusher bolt and get the clutch asm off the machine. Thanks for the "how to do it" details guys!  I will get the coil asm separated and make a closer inspection and see what is up in there.  I also need to find the info mentioned about rewinding the coil.   At this point the clutch is useless, so if necessary I will enlarge the wire entry area to gain access inside.  I'll be no further behind if I ruin it or let out the magic smoke as it doesn't work now.

 

Going forward I suppose I need to find another/spare clutch, or if possible convert to a manual (if that's possible),,, gonna keep fighting awhile before handing over 9K for a new setup!

[bmsgaffer 2,045]

If you want to convert to manual it should be no problem, just bolts on. You will just need all the parts from the PTO to convert. If you talk to one of the used parts people they should be able to get you a whole setup. 

[js5020 111]

1 hour ago, bmsgaffer said:

If you want to convert to manual it should be no problem, just bolts on. You will just need all the parts from the PTO to convert. If you talk to one of the used parts people they should be able to get you a whole setup. 

A manual setup sounds like a long term solution and I see plenty of friction disc sources.  Any particular models to source the conversion parts from?  I only use the pto to power the snowblower, it sure picked a great time to quit! 

[Ed Kennell 38,595]

You probably need to find a PTO arrangement off a Raider.  I just recently sold one.    I personally think they work better  than the newer version.   No safety switches and simpler design that is easier to adjust clutch pressure.

 

 

 

@A-Z Tractor  probably has everything you need.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Ed Kennell

[bmsgaffer 2,045]

You should be able to get parts off of any 70's era no name 8-speed or B or C series. They all had the manual style PTO which requires more adjustments than the electric, but doesn't fail as often. 

 

This topic from the picture gallery gives you a pretty good view of what all is involved. I would take a look at an IPL for a gear drive tractor from that era to know exactly what you need. There are a fair amount of small parts, but if you get it used then they will come in just a few "chunks" to reassemble. (off hand: clutch disk plate with bolts, PTO pulley bell with bearings and end shaft, pto hoop, hoop brackets if you don't already have them, pto cam plate, pto arm with adjustable trunnion, and pto handle that goes on the dash tower. )

 

You don't have to reinstall the safety switches, but it definitely would be a good idea if they were on that era of tractor.  

Edited March 16, 2017 by bmsgaffer

[953 nut 55,729]

17 minutes ago, js5020 said:

Any particular models to source the conversion parts from?

 

10 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

find a PTO arrangement off a Raider.

Raider wouldn't work because you have a hydro unit. A Charger 12 would probably be your best match, both have a 1 1/8" crankshaft and is a Hydro. You will need to replace the drive pulley (friction disk bolts to it) as well as the PTO and the engagement hardware. The type Ed showed you will be the simplest to bolt on. Contact @A-Z Tractor and I'm sure he can hook you up with a complete set up.

[Ed Kennell 38,595]

Thanks Richard,  I didn't remember the Electro was a hydro.    Just curious though, how would the  Raider and Charger  PTOs  differ?  Interference with the hydro motion control maybe?

[evanloock 221]

There is NO difference between the manual PTO type used from the early side actuated style to the later push lever style between models of the same generation.  Their transmissions had nothing to do with the PTO.  Some models came standard with an Electric PTO such as the Electro's and GT-14's, but they can be converted to the manual PTO.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,090]

The pto clutch plate is bolted to the transmission drive pulley. The drive pulley is a different diameter for gear and hydro transmissions but are they all drilled to accept the pto clutch plate?

 

Garry

[evanloock 221]

Just now, gwest_ca said:

The pto clutch plate is bolted to the transmission drive pulley. The drive pulley is a different diameter for gear and hydro transmissions but are they all drilled to accept the pto clutch plate?

 

Garry

Yes….except for the 953, 1054 & 1054-A which used a set screw to hold the friction plate onto the engine output shaft.

[pfrederi 17,852]

The attachment clutch was an add-on for Chargers and raiders both models used 8-3111...and I know you can use the 8-3111 to replace the electric PTO on Electros.  Done that as I do not like electric PTOs for snowblowers

[daveoman1966 3,758]

Here is what you need...instead of what is shown here on a Raider 12.  This is from a C-120...same as for the C-160.