Thoughts on axle shafts

[pfrederi 17,902]

Working on a Charger 10  with the 5 pinion differential.  Discovered the snap ring had come off one axle and chewed up the end to the extent I am not comfortable just putting on a new snap ring. On these rear ends WH used two different length axle shafts  The right side is 12 inches long...and that is the one that is messed up.  Went to my parts bin and found  some decent axles.  of course none were 12" long.  I have 3 nice shafts 11-5/8 inch.  Inquiring minds want to know  would it be terribly wrong to use one of those?  The hub would stick out 3/8" beyond the end of the shaft but other than ascetics I can't believe it would weaken the system that much.

 

Alternatively I could drill the end of the shaft and use a roll pin as WH did at some point in the past.  (Anyone remember what size roll pin they used?)

 

Other ideas????

[stevasaurus 22,882]

Hi Paul...the roll pin was 1/4" x 1 1/2".  That is what they used on the early trans axles...those were 1" axles.  You would have 1/4" sticking out on each side of the axle.  You have 1 1/8" axles...I would think that the 1/4" x  1 1/12" roll pins would do their magic and not let an axle gear past them. 

   I think that the 11 5/8" axle would be OK also.  The roll pin would be better.

 

   Maybe grind a slight flat spot on the end of the axle, so the drill does not slide on you. 

Edited January 24, 2017 by stevasaurus

[Terry M-(Moderator) 2,176]

3 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

The roll pin would be better.

I agree with Steve , The 5025"s and 5053's that I've built all came with the roll pins on the axles.   Simple, but proven Durable..

[953 nut 55,883]

6 hours ago, pfrederi said:

I could drill the end of the shaft and use a roll pin

Good luck, I ruined a couple of new drill bits attempting to drill the spline end of an axle.

 

5 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

think that the 11 5/8" axle would be OK

Go the simple route, that 3/8" won't matter one bit.

[pfrederi 17,902]

Looked at drilling the axle.  To get some metal beyond the roll pin (Inside end) I would have to drill the hole such that it would force the gear further out and result in more axle being inside the differential ..potential hitting the other  axle???  The outer edge of teh snap ring slot is just a hair over 1/4 inch in from the end.  Would any f thei make any difference??

 

First picture shows 1/4"drill/and pin relative to the snap ring  slot edge the second pic about where I would think it should be drilled

[lynnmor 7,356]

Could you cut the snap ring groove twice as wide, so that the damaged area is cut away, and use two snap rings?  

[Terry M-(Moderator) 2,176]

Well, that explains the use of snap rings over roll pins.  Sorry, Paul....I thought we were onto a good alternative fix.

 

I'm always looking for a way myself to keep there Uni-Drives going..

[stevasaurus 22,882]

I'll bet you could use a 3/16 roll pin and keep 3/16" of axle end...that would be like gaining 1/8".  Great pictures Paul. 

 

That double clip idea has some merit. 

[pfrederi 17,902]

I will take another picture tomorrow but if the snap ring groove was widened there would hardly be any material left on the end of the shaft.

Edited January 25, 2017 by pfrederi

[lynnmor 7,356]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

I will take another picture tomorrow but if the snap ring groove was widened there would hardly be any material left on the end of the shaft.

 

 

You can get the snap rings in .056" and .103" thicknesses.  You might be able to sneak a bit off the inboard edge of the groove as well.  Another option is to grind down the snap ring(s) thickness for a custom fit.  I do have the capabilities to do any of the above.

[953 nut 55,883]

  Rather than going through all of these shenanigans with questionable outcomes I would just use the shorter one or buy another. These shafts are hardened and will not be easy to cut or drill and you don't want the snap ring falling off inside.

[stevasaurus 22,882]

Richard...are you sure these axles are hardened??  I have not seen that in the early transmissions.  It is like I can sand these with emery cloth and a file to get rid of burrs.  I do not think these axles are hardened.   Why do you think that??  Just asking. 

   I do have a couple of 1'axles for a #5025 in the garage...I can measure the hole and how far from the end that wheel Horse used.  They are 1" axles.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by stevasaurus

[953 nut 55,883]

5 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

I do not think these axles are hardened.   Why do you think that?

Because I ruined two perfectly good drill bits attempting to drill a shaft that had the same problem, didn't make a mark and I was using a drill press and oil. If they can be drilled I'm willing to learn.

[Racinbob 11,240]

That's odd Richard. I have to agree with Steve that the axles aren't hardened. I have drilled them quite easily. But I'm also talking early 60's. I also wonder if the hub set screw would make a divot in a hardened axle like they do.

[Racinbob 11,240]

Thinking about this more I'm wondering if the actually did harden them when they went to the splined axles. The ones I've drilled weren't splined. It's pretty common to do the axle flip thing on the 5003/10 transmissions.

[lynnmor 7,356]

I checked the hardness on a 1-1/8" axle with splines.  The readings were 20Rc at the splines and the hub area.  The area where the wheel bearings run were 62 to 69Rc. The area where the seal runs was worn and hardness dropped off there.  Had the hardening been carried out just a bit farther, the wear would have been minimal.   Apparently they are induction hardened in the bearing area only.  For reference, drilling and machining with conventional high speed bits can be done up to approximately 40Rc, carbide can be used up to about 62Rc.  Harder than 62Rc usually requires grinding or EDM.  20Rc is soft and very easy to machine.

["D"- Man 827]

You may consider having custom axles made, like I did when I wanted to have a pair for duels.  I had a fellow member make a pair using 4140 and then having them induction heat treated at the bearing and seal areas.

[pfrederi 17,902]

Have learned a lot about axles here  thank you all!!!

 

Have a replacement coming will see if it as good as it looks.  if not probably will go with the 11-5/8". 

 

WH beveled the end of the splines so even on a good axle there is only .125" of full spline  beyond the snap ring groove..  On some of my worn ones there is only .055 left.  I would be hesitant to enlarge the snap ring groove if that is all that would be left.

[stevasaurus 22,882]

Paul, did you get the axle from Mike?  Curious if he is still in the business. 

[pfrederi 17,902]

found one on ebay

[953 nut 55,883]

6 hours ago, lynnmor said:

the hardness on a 1-1/8" axle with splines.  The readings were 20Rc at the splines

 

3 hours ago, pfrederi said:

learned a lot about axles here  thank you all!

I too have learned a lot, guess I need to dig that axle out and give it another try.  

[stevasaurus 22,882]

I too have learned a lot.    I hate that sometimes. 

   I think I would like @lynnmor to expand on the process of determining hardness that he is talking about.  that sounds interesting...maybe in another thread...or this one.

   

[lynnmor 7,356]

I have a Rockwell Hardness Tester.  Google it and you will find a good description on Wikipedia.

 

 

[Anglo Traction 761]

On 26/01/2017 at 3:24 PM, lynnmor said:

I checked the hardness on a 1-1/8" axle with splines.  The readings were 20Rc at the splines and the hub area.  The area where the wheel bearings run were 62 to 69Rc. The area where the seal runs was worn and hardness dropped off there.  Had the hardening been carried out just a bit farther, the wear would have been minimal.  

Thanks for quoting those hardness figures. I've been intending to obtain those for some while now, as I wish to produce a few shafts myself when I get to start the rebuild on my spare 103916 Trans. I will then only need the correct (Involute?) cutter form.  thanks