Another 5010 thread...

[Walleye 28]

Ok, I am a new member here. Here is my intro thread in case anyone is interested

Link to intro thread

 

I pulled the transmission apart. It needed multiple seals and the input shaft had what I assume to be excessive play so I wanted to figure out why. Please see this video for a quick example. 

I'd say it needs some bearings - at least I'm pretty sure it does. See this video. The bearings do not spin freely at all, and instead are almost gritty or notched feeling. This is after I had soaked them in ATF, diesel, then rinsed with brake clean and compressed air. That procedure has restored many automotive wheel bearings to new but didn't seem to make an impression on these. 

 

 

Nothing was broken (that I have found so far). Most everything looks good. 

 

My question on the input shaft, and after looking at the diagram, but.. am I missing a bearing? Does the input shaft have 2 bearings? One on the outside, just behind the seal, and 1 on the inside?

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,882]

Walleye...Welcome to Red Square.  You are correct...the input shaft has 2 S8K bearings there.  One is flush with the inside of the case and the outer one is recessed enough to accept the seal.  Put the inside one in from the inside, and the outside one from the out side.    Your input shaft and gear looks good.  It is fine.  Someone has opened this transmission before, you should have a closed bearing where your cluster gear shaft goes.  Check out this thread.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by stevasaurus

[Walleye 28]

Thanks Steve! I'm not seeing anything pertaining to the 5010 transmission in your link. 

 

What a pain in the butt. I have read countless threads. I really wish there was a site where I could get ALL the necessary bearings and seals from, instead of multiple sites, all charging $10-15 shipping each. 

[Walleye 28]

Any reason I can't use S8K's in all 7 positions in the transmission?

[stevasaurus 22,882]

Sorry about that link...it was stuck in there from a previous thread.  I put the correct link in there now.  The #5003 and the #5010 are the same transmission internally.  @Jake Kuhn sells complete kits (bearings, seals and gaskets). for these 3 piece transmissions...send him a PM.  One stop shopping. 

    The S8K is an open bearing and is 5/16" thick.  The nice 412-35 is a closed bearing and is 3/8" thick.  If you are just going to ride around the yard and at shows...using all S8Ks will work.  If you are going to work the tractor, I recommend putting the right bearings in the right places.  To me the S8K is a bearing with more play in it then the closed nice 412-35.  Using all S8K bearings would put more slop in the transmission, and I believe would cause premature wear between the gears and their shafts.  You can see the closed bearings on the middle right...this case had the needle bearing in  the brake shaft position, hence only 2 nice 412-35. 

[Walleye 28]

Thanks again Steve! I sent Jake a PM. 

 

I had went ahead and shopped around, and placed orders last night for the various parts. I'm beginning to receive emails notifying me that they are in fact not "in stock" as  a few of the vendors listed (Motion Industries for example). We shall see. I've no intention of buying implements or working the Suburban, its only for play. The S8K's would probably suffice but we will see what Jake can do. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Walleye

[stevasaurus 22,882]

Jake has the correct bearings, seals and gaskets.  Motion Industries carries everything except the nice 412-35 and the TORO axle seals. 

[WHX?? 49,191]

It never fails to amaze me why a PO would take a bearing out like that and not replace it. There are a ton of instructionals here for the three piece trannys and Steve has been instrumental in most of them & he's got you out on the right foot. @Racinbob has had his share apart in his day as well. If you can get a pic of the axels, we'd like to see how scored they are, The aforementioned Bob has a real easy method to make them just like new....well almost!  

 

Here a thread I did on some 'Burban work when I was a rookie and both those guys helped me out, Transmission work starts on post 47.

Also take a close look at that 3523 gear those are what usually take a beating ...new one can be had here

This is a cheat sheet Steve put together ..you may or may not already have it

Edited December 27, 2016 by WHX9

[Walleye 28]

Thank you Jim & Steve! 

Jim, I will provide pictures but I believe both of my axles themselves look great, and the brass bushings (at least the 2 in the axle tubes) look perfect. You mention the 3523 gear,.. that is that the 2nd and 3rd gear correct? If so, I will pay it special attention but I don't recall any concerns when looking it over. Maybe I'll upload another video. 

 

The Toro 83-2840 axle seals should be here tomorrow.

I have the Timken 471643 input and brake seals.

The ebay vendor whom I ordered the Fafnir S8K's from 2 days ago, has not shipped them yet.  

 

I confirmed that Motion and Kelly Supply both require minimum of 10 Nice 412-35 bearings (actually they both cross reference to the General 22603-01 bearings). I notice on the Kelly Supply site that the General 22603-01 says that it is an unground low precision bearing - so I wondered about just going ahead and ordering and using S8K's if I continue having problems sourcing Nice 412-35 bearings - Since the S8K's should be a higher quality bearing? The tractor is strictly for play, but I am giving it my best effort to get the 412-35 bearings first. Jake is going to check and see if he has any extras besides what he has in kits. 

[Racinbob 11,240]

Yes, the 3523 is the 2nd/3rd gear. Check the inner teeth. That engages with the input shaft gear when in 3rd. If the tractor slips out of 3rd this and/or the input shaft gear are the culprit. In the early years Wheel Horse sorta advocated shifting while moving by stating in their manuals "depress clutch 2/3's of the way when shifting while in motion". Not good. Here's a NOS (left) and one with some wear.

 

 

The one with the wear would probably be OK in a non-worker as long as the input gear was decent. Also make sure you are getting full engagement in 3rd gear. Put it in 3rd and you'll feel the detent balls catch. You should have no in/out play on the input shaft. With mine, I could actually move the shifter partially past the detents. Not much but it was there. That created about 1/10" of disengagement which was a recipe for trouble. I experimented with arbor shims until I was happy with it.

[Walleye 28]

My 3523 gear doesn't look as bad as the one you posted on the right, but not as good as the one on the left. I have yet to get this tractor running, so I can't confirm whether it has problems or not. How does my 3524 gear look in the videos?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WHX?? 49,191]

I would say those axles ( and everything else) look good to go Walleye. Some very light emery clothing on the axles is all. The gears should be ok pending what are you are gonna use the tractor for. A couple of chipped teeth on the 3524 don't bother me as long as you get the cases good and clean.

Here's another 3 piece going thru the same thing as yours

 

This was mine for comparison and bushing almost wore strait through. Somebody was coddling your girl in it's life.  

[Walleye 28]

Thanks! The case is already pretty clean. There was a good amount of sludge in the case but no pieces larger than the tiny particles suspended in the oil. I have cleaned everything pretty well. Once I get the trans back together, I may still run a flush or 2 of diesel through it. 

[Racinbob 11,240]

Nice videos. That transmission has had an easy life. Everything I see looks great. I would probably still flip the axles to put the light scoring in a spot where it doesn't matter but it really isn't needed. Great job on that thing. 

Oh wait...... I confused Jim's axle with yours. No need to flip yours 

[Walleye 28]

Thanks.. I don't know if the transmission had an easy life, I believe it has just been opened up and worked on before.

[Racinbob 11,240]

Oh, that's right, the incorrect bearing. But still, my comment stands. 

[WHX?? 49,191]

16 hours ago, Walleye said:

I believe it has just been opened up and worked on before.

More than likely, I mean somebody could have removed that missing bearing without cracking the cases open but would have been a bugger. Check the input shaft outer bearing socket diameter & bearing fitment in case the old one spun in it and that's why they took it out. Its also possible the bearing came apart & pieces migrated into the case causing the gear to chip?  PO thought is was just as easy to remove the bearing? Just thinking out loud here.

Keep up the good work!

16 hours ago, Racinbob said:

Oh wait...... I confused

Seems your getting a lot like that these days Bob

[oldlineman 1,482]

For future refrence I believe Wheelhorseman1000 has kits with bearings and seals made up for several trans. Check with him, he is a vender here.

[stevasaurus 22,882]

OK...for sure somebody has been in your transmission before, and probably not to long ago.  Here is why...

1. somebody painted the inside of your side plates red.  They were never painted from the factory.

2. looking at your gears (while they are OK) they have enough wear on them to tell that the previous owner didn't always come to a complete stop before shifting.

3.  the bronze bushings in your differential look to good to be original.

4. I also suspect that your differential has been replaced.  You have the bolt on bull gear and it is like new.

5. I also suspect that your axles have been replaced by home built axles.  Look at the key way...it is a straight cut and not cut for a wood ruff key...and there is zero wear from the bronze axle bearing.

 

Basically, they did a nice job, and I have opened up these transmissions before where the previous owner has gone with all S8K bearings.  Who ever worked in there before, I'm thinking, should have known about the 2 bearings on the input shaft.  Anyway, you should be fine with whichever way you choose to go. 

   Great videos...thanks.   The camera shows everything!!  I did notice some gouges/grooves in the one bronze bearing in the differential.  Take a good look at the side plate, maybe you can smooth that out a little and be OK. 

   Just so everyone knows...Wheelhorseman1000 does have bearings, seals and gaskets for the 2 piece, manual transmissions...he does not have the stuff for the 3 piece transmissions as of yet. (it may be a while).  Jake has the 3 piece stuff. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by stevasaurus

[Racinbob 11,240]

1 hour ago, WHX9 said:

Seems your getting a lot like that these days Bob

 

It scares me to think how true that is.

[stevasaurus 22,882]

You're OK Bob...just need a defrag. 

 

[Racinbob 11,240]

I'm not sure that would do it Steve, I think my processor is fried. 

[WHX?? 49,191]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain Walleye .... we are not tring to steal your thread, we are a kinda close knit bunch and like to rib each other...alot!

[Walleye 28]

No worries guys, I found it amusing! I've got nothing to update until I hear back from Jake as to whether he has 3 extra 412-35 bearings. 

[stevasaurus 22,882]

Walleye, if Jake doesn't have those...I think I would try those Generals you found above.  I have not seen those before, but they are the right size and I think they would be better then the S8Ks in those places.  The Motion Industries catalog # is 00105189...General #22603-01