C-160 Hydro issues

[BrianK 58]

Gentlemen,

As a few of you are aware im new to the forum, as well as Wheel Horse products so you'll have to bear with my follies as they appear. I picked up a 76, according to the tag, C-160 Auto about a week ago with some known issues. It's colder than a witches *** in a brass bra out here right now and my detached garage isn't heated but i've managed to get out there a little bit and tinker.  Just real quick ill give you guys all the info that I have regarding the issue and then Ill get to my first quick and dirty question for this troubleshooting thread. Hopefully it will help others. I apologize if ive missed this topic covered in the forum before but ive beat the search button to a pulp and havent found anything yet. 

 

The PO of the tractor was tilling his garden and suddenly lost forward, reverse and lift with no warning and 175 hours on the tractor.  Sounds like a probable  pump issue so he bought one, installed it and it didnt fix it.  Changed the oil, took off the filter and found pieces of a metal snap ring/retaining clip. Removed the pump/motor assembly and found one missing and pieces of it in the transfer case, replaced it and didn't fix it BUT mentioned that someone on RedSquare said there should be two retaining clips...to which I can only assume belong to the motor shaft based on what im looking at in this 73-77 Piston-Piston Hydrostatic Transmission parts drawing of my Sundstrand Automatic Transmission Repair Manual, page 60.  That's where the information stops. He said he wasn't sure about that so I assume no further disassembly or inspections were performed, at least I have to assume that.  So, as an aside, as I think about this throughout the day...one thing that doesnt add up to me is; If just the retaining clips on the shaft broke (which I notice was a service bulletin: #195 "Motor snap ring failure, 1975 and prior tractors; S/A 105124" Issued 12/76) why would he also lose lift? Seems the pressure for the hydro lift would come from the pump end cap where the lift hoses connect, well before the motors pump was being charged....but again, im new so maybe im way off. In fact I hope I am for the obvious "two birds, one stone".  Anyway, I did run the tractor and the pump shaft was definitely spinning. I also blocked up the rear wheels and they do spin opposite of each other. No lift, wheels didn't move. I checked the tow valve.

 

  SO...I jacked it up, drained the oil, disconnected the hoses, got hypothermia, took off the wheel and cracked the cap off the motor housing just to explore and drain more oil, lost feeling in my fingers, noticed I couldn't pull the motor housing away from the motor end cap, which made sense after reviewing the drawing, and then called it a night.  THEN I got to reading the manual...you know, some light bedtime reading.   OH, before I forget, the parking brake doesn't work. The tractor was off, and on blocks. I engaged the brake and nothing. What am I missing?     Anyway...I noticed in the manual on page 17 of the 1974 C-Auto manual it states that certain things have to be done with the charge and implement valves to avoid excess transmission pressure if the hydro lift was ever removed. Not sure if mine is a 74 but the picture of the pump in the manual is of my pump and I know all the C-160 Autos, 74-77, used Sundstrand 90-1140's except for the 77' variation with the Onan motor (90-1137) so im gonna roll with it.  I decided to cross reference that information with the parts drawing previously mentioned to give myself an idea of what to look for...mainly for exploratory purposes, and knowledge of the inner workings. Why not, im in there right?  So I took my parts drawing out to the tractor and proceeded to take off the implement valve hex plug and charge valve hex plug to look for contaminants, damaged components etc. Everything seems as it should EXCEPT there are no shims in the implement (upper rear) side and there is no ball in the charge valve (upper forward) side. HUH? So I grabbed the original pump I got from the PO (which there most likely isn't anything wrong with) and performed the same procedure with the same exact result, no shims and no ball. So I either have to be misreading this parts drawing, which im not, or they aren't needed for some strange reason im not aware of, its the WRONG drawing or im missing some info I REALLY wish I had at -10 degrees standing next to a broken pot heater and an empty propane canister.    Im at the top so I figure go through the pump and make sure everything is kosher, I may even go inside the original pump and refurb the thrust plate and slipper faces. I did take it apart and there are some light surface "scratches"...my fingernail wont catch on any of them but why not, its apart. I know it doesnt take much of a gap for hot oil to blow by. I wont crack the pump on the tractor unless I have to, and ill just wait until the original is re-built before I do that. 

 

I apologize for the novel, I think I mentioned "quick" a couple times at the beginning.  The more info I give you guys, the better you'll be able to help so...

To reiterate the issues/questions:

 

Do you lose lift if the motor shaft stops spinning but the hydro pump doesnt?

 

Whats up with the parking brake?

 

What are your thoughts on the missing shims and ball for the implement and charge valves? Are they needed?

 

One last question... for this post haha. if worse comes to worst, which hydro transmissions are a direct bolt on replacement for the C-160 Autos? Am I limited to the 90-1140 or will a 90-1137 (C-160 Auto with the Onan) or a 90-1136 from a C-120 work? I've tried searching the differences between transmissions to no avail.   Seems around me I can get running 120's all day but 160's are hard to come by. 

 

 all in advance for any info or insight you can provide, even if its a suggestion to look at something im not considering.  I do plan on removing the pump/motor assembly and looking further into the broken retaining clip issue. Ill be looking for more contaminants and any locked up components as well as check the strainer, bearings, seals etc before replacing the filter and adding new oil, but id like to clear up the issues mentioned before I continue so I don't get lost trying to multi-task.  Thanks again.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2016 by BrianK

[squonk 41,362]

@daveoman1966 I put this here so Dave see this. He rebuilds these and is the most knowledgeable that I know. 

 

[BrianK 58]

Sweet, thank you.

[pfrederi 17,886]

The lift runs off the charge pump.  Shims are used to get correct pressure.  You may not need any.  Need to run a pressure test on the charge pump. Should be a ball in the charge valve.

 

On the motor ring are you talking about #74 on page 60 or #91

 

Parking brake.  Probably ground down by inappropriate use.  It is on the transaxle metal loop that drops down to engage some gear teeth.  Applying it while still moving grinds it down. The opn epictuerd id ground down shuld be straight across.  The metal shavings from this create the scratched on your valve plates.

[Sarge 3,463]

Is this the C-160 that was in Villa Park or that general area for sale awhile back ? I had asked about it due to the very low hours and he mentioned the hydro issues but was so vague about it I passed for the asking price . I'm not far from you and am familiar with the Somonauk area , nice to see someone else close by for once , Welcome Aboard !

He also had a really nice low hours 2-stage snow blower for that tractor , I was tempted but just can't scratch the funds this time of year .

Sarge

[Ed Kennell 38,687]

I have installed a 90-1136 in my C-160 with no issues.   I don't have the hyd lift, so I'm not sure if that would be a problem for you.

[BrianK 58]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

The lift runs off the charge pump.  Shims are used to get correct pressure.  You may not need any.  Need to run a pressure test on the charge pump. Should be a ball in the charge valve.

 

On the motor ring are you talking about #74 on page 60 or #91

 

Parking brake.  Probably ground down by inappropriate use.  It is on the transaxle metal loop that drops down to engage some gear teeth.  Applying it while still moving grinds it down. The opn epictuerd id ground down shuld be straight across.  The metal shavings from this create the scratched on your valve plates.

 

Thank you for the info. I should be able to grab a pressure gauge from work to test with. Not sure what to do about the ball, maybe I'll try to find out what size the ball is and just buy one. 

 

I'm not sure on the motor ring, I apologize, I should have referenced numbers in my OP. I will have to check when I get home. 

 

10-4 on the parking brake. I assume the only way to access that is to crack the case...

 

 

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Is this the C-160 that was in Villa Park or that general area for sale awhile back ? I had asked about it due to the very low hours and he mentioned the hydro issues but was so vague about it I passed for the asking price . I'm not far from you and am familiar with the Somonauk area , nice to see someone else close by for once , Welcome Aboard !

He also had a really nice low hours 2-stage snow blower for that tractor , I was tempted but just can't scratch the funds this time of year .

Sarge

 

Thanks for the welcome, Sarge. Yes sir, that's the one. I was eyeballing it as well and then he suddenly lowered everything he had to "best offer" as he was moving in a couple days so I jumped. I was able to save everything from being put on the curb in Chicago for the scrappers, including that 2 stage blower. 👍🏻

 

Good to hear you're close! If you're ever driving through Somonauk and run into trouble with the law, just name drop me haha 😉. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Ed Kennell said:

I have installed a 90-1136 in my C-160 with no issues.   I don't have the hyd lift, so I'm not sure if that would be a problem for you.

 

Thanks for the info, Ed. I wonder if any 120's came with hydro lift, or maybe that would just be a pump swap.

 

 

[pfrederi 17,886]

To replace the parking brake you have to split the case.  you can just weld up the chewed up part and grind it smooth.  I will measure the ball later today...

[BrianK 58]

29 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

To replace the parking brake you have to split the case.  you can just weld up the chewed up part and grind it smooth.  I will measure the ball later today...

 

You, sir, are awesome. Thank you.

[pfrederi 17,886]

Charge relief valve uses a 7/16" ball  the spring is 1-1/16" uncompressed

[BrianK 58]

7 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Charge relief valve uses a 7/16" ball  the spring is 1-1/16" uncompressed

 

Awesome, thank you!

[daveoman1966 3,762]

Here is a narrative on what is needed to add the hydraulic lift to the Sundstrand 90-1136, 1137, and 1140 hydro units on the B-100 C12- C160 and other Auto trans Wheelhorse.  Note that there are SOME variations from year to year.  

Of course, you'll need the hyd slave cylinder and controls.

 

HYDRAULIC LIFT CONVERSION (3).docx

[BrianK 58]

11 hours ago, pfrederi said:

The lift runs off the charge pump.  Shims are used to get correct pressure.  You may not need any.  Need to run a pressure test on the charge pump. Should be a ball in the charge valve.

 

On the motor ring are you talking about #74 on page 60 or #91

 

Parking brake.  Probably ground down by inappropriate use.  It is on the transaxle metal loop that drops down to engage some gear teeth.  Applying it while still moving grinds it down. The opn epictuerd id ground down shuld be straight across.  The metal shavings from this create the scratched on your valve plates.

@pfrederi

So the snap ring I was referencing would have to be #91 on page 60.  The PO showed me a picture of the new one he installed. I have no clue if #74 is damaged. I'm going to try and tear into that part of it tomorrow.  My mind is boggled how both pump end caps can be missing the balls in the charge valves. As an aside, when I took of #77, motor cover plate, it exposes #90, the ball bearing. The ball bearing looks to be in good shape and the snap ring is there, however I couldn't spin the bearing....even by spinning the opposite wheel. I'm not saying it should have because I have no idea right now but it seems like I should have been able to rotate the bearing even if the motor shaft was stationary...or maybe not, depending on the press fit tolerance I suppose. I will order the machined balls for the charge valves from mcmaster or someplace similar tonight and hopefully be able to install them next week. That will give me some time to mess with the pump/motor assembly and break it down for inspection.I wont try to test the pressure until all the components are in the charge valve. Unless it looks like a frag grenade went off in the transfer case Ill probably leave the parking brake until after I figure out the more pressing issues. To mitigate the risk of breaking a hub, I will probably fabercoble up a puller similar to one another gentleman on this forum made....his name escapes me but its a sticky somewhere around here. I have a 1/2" corless impact I know would rip em off the axles with a bearing puller but I don't want to risk it with them being cast and cold.  Credit to him for the great idea. Ill also try to remember pictures for this thread.

 

@daveoman1966

3 hours ago, daveoman1966 said:

Here is a narrative on what is needed to add the hydraulic lift to the Sundstrand 90-1136, 1137, and 1140 hydro units on the B-100 C12- C160 and other Auto trans Wheelhorse.  Note that there are SOME variations from year to year.  

Of course, you'll need the hyd slave cylinder and controls.

 

HYDRAULIC LIFT CONVERSION (3).docx

 

 

Thank you for the link Dave. After glancing through the instructions it would appear that if I already have a C-160 with, and equipped for, hydro lift all I would need to do is acquire a 90-1136 or 90-1137, bolt it on and install the charge and implement valve components into the pump end-cap? All other things on these particular piston-piston transmissions being equal?

Edited December 17, 2016 by BrianK

[oldredrider 2,549]

Once the motor and pump assembly is removed from the transaxle,  you can access and take out the parking brake for repair. I've removed and repaired many parking brakes and have never split a hydro transmission. 

[Sarge 3,463]

I still had that seller's phone number and figured I'd ask before looking like an idiot or bothering the guy . Glad someone finally got it and he lowered the price a bit - it really wasn't priced high for getting a sweet 2 stage that was nearly new and not worn out or abused .

I know somewhere up there in Chicago is a shop I had found in the yellow pages search that worked on the Sundstrand pumps and motors - might want to take a glance since the last time I had talked to them a few years ago they claimed a full rebuild as long as the case wasn't shot would be around $600 with a warranty and full pressure testing .

The parking brake is an easy fix and I recommend doing it - if you don't weld just have a shop cut off the bad part and weld on a new piece of 1018 steel and while in there check the diff bolts and clean any possible contamination out of the case - that is the most important thing and will kill a hydro pump in a second or two .

 

Btw - what condition is the pickup screen behind the hydro motor ?

 

Sarge

[pfrederi 17,886]

18 hours ago, BrianK said:

@pfrederi

So the snap ring I was referencing would have to be #91 on page 60.  The PO showed me a picture of the new one he installed. I have no clue if #74 is damaged. I'm going to try and tear into that part of it tomorrow.  My mind is boggled how both pump end caps can be missing the balls in the charge valves. As an aside, when I took of #77, motor cover plate, it exposes #90, the ball bearing. The ball bearing looks to be in good shape and the snap ring is there, however I couldn't spin the bearing....even by spinning the opposite wheel. I'm not saying it should have because I have no idea right now but it seems like I should have been able to rotate the bearing even if the motor shaft was stationary...or maybe not, depending on the press fit tolerance I suppose. I will order the machined balls for the charge valves from mcmaster or someplace similar tonight and hopefully be able to install them next week. That will give me some time to mess with the pump/motor assembly and break it down for inspection.I wont try to test the pressure until all the components are in the charge valve. Unless it looks like a frag grenade went off in the transfer case Ill probably leave the parking brake until after I figure out the more pressing issues. To mitigate the risk of breaking a hub, I will probably fabercoble up a puller similar to one another gentleman on this forum made....his name escapes me but its a sticky somewhere around here. I have a 1/2" corless impact I know would rip em off the axles with a bearing puller but I don't want to risk it with them being cast and cold.  Credit to him for the great idea. Ill also try to remember pictures for this thread.

 

@daveoman1966

 

 

Thank you for the link Dave. After glancing through the instructions it would appear that if I already have a C-160 with, and equipped for, hydro lift all I would need to do is acquire a 90-1136 or 90-1137, bolt it on and install the charge and implement valve components into the pump end-cap? All other things on these particular piston-piston transmissions being equal?

The bearing should not spin on either the shaft or inside the housing.  You should spin both wheels the same way you will over come the differential ans the hydro motor shaft should turn.  You cannot spin the bearing cage by hand.

 

I do not know what change they made when they replaced #91 snap ring and motor shaft in the service bulletin.  I have a used shaft and the snap ring groove on it seems to be a bit thick than the groove in an assembled motor I have...but which is the new one ????

 

As to the missing charge valve ball...try sticking a pencil magnet in there and see if the ball comes out maybe stuck...

Edited December 17, 2016 by pfrederi

[BrianK 58]

On 12/17/2016 at 10:07 AM, Sarge said:

I still had that seller's phone number and figured I'd ask before looking like an idiot or bothering the guy . Glad someone finally got it and he lowered the price a bit - it really wasn't priced high for getting a sweet 2 stage that was nearly new and not worn out or abused .

I know somewhere up there in Chicago is a shop I had found in the yellow pages search that worked on the Sundstrand pumps and motors - might want to take a glance since the last time I had talked to them a few years ago they claimed a full rebuild as long as the case wasn't shot would be around $600 with a warranty and full pressure testing .

The parking brake is an easy fix and I recommend doing it - if you don't weld just have a shop cut off the bad part and weld on a new piece of 1018 steel and while in there check the diff bolts and clean any possible contamination out of the case - that is the most important thing and will kill a hydro pump in a second or two .

 

Btw - what condition is the pickup screen behind the hydro motor ?

 

Sarge

 

Yea, he seemed like a pretty good dude. There is a bit of mystery surrounding this tractor and its issues but maybe he just didn't know what was up, I dunno.  He lowered the price substantially   I don't really have time for any more projects, especially starting one when its 10 degrees out but it was so low I couldn't pass.  Thanks for the heads up on the Chicago company, ill be saving that info for sure.  Ill address the parking brake in my update coming shortly after this reply. 

The pickup screen looks fantastic! I'll post pics of it in the update post....ive got a massive info dump coming haha

[BrianK 58]

21 hours ago, pfrederi said:

The bearing should not spin on either the shaft or inside the housing.  You should spin both wheels the same way you will over come the differential ans the hydro motor shaft should turn.  You cannot spin the bearing cage by hand.

 

I do not know what change they made when they replaced #91 snap ring and motor shaft in the service bulletin.  I have a used shaft and the snap ring groove on it seems to be a bit thick than the groove in an assembled motor I have...but which is the new one ????

 

As to the missing charge valve ball...try sticking a pencil magnet in there and see if the ball comes out maybe stuck...

 

Yea im a bit of a knucklehead. Hmm, I didn't even notice they replaced the shaft as well.  Got me wondering now too. The replacement split ring on the end of this motor shaft is .0375 thick. I suppose you could measure the width of the groove in your spare shaft, I assume the thicker of the two would have to be the replacement. 

 

Yea, definitely no ball. I took out both valves and could see all the way through the end cap. A mystery that will never be solved, and its gonna drive me crazy. I hate not knowing.

 

 

Alrighty then.  I got a wild hair up my butt Friday night and Saturday instead of going to work and working I decided to work on my stuff, at work.  Remember its my first hydro, my first wheel horse, and my first crack at messing with a trans so feel free to poke fun at my "face palm" moments, I enjoy a good jabbing. If you cant laugh at yourself you're not allowed to laugh at others right?

 

I left off the other day not having any balls...fffffffor my valves, not knowing what was up with the parking brake aaaaand not being able to spin that bearing. Which in hindsight makes sense (with help from ya'll) because I didn't try spinning it with the wheels and the motor was still attached to the case AAAND I don't even know if I had the parking brake engaged. Face palm #1.  Hey, I was tired, it was like midnight and I lost all logic and deducing skills due to a 3 hour brain freeze, and NOT because I was stuffing my face with a delicious frozen desert. Theres my excuse for friday and saturday.  

 

I pulled the pump/motor assembly Friday night. 

 

Not too shabby. I was happy to see it was perfect in there.  No excessive wear on the teeth of any of the gears. In fact, hardly any wear at all....consistent with the advertised low hours im guessin. No metal to speak of. Take a look at this parking brake!

 

 

Perfect!  So why was I having an issue with the parking brake if its in that good of condition you ask? Because I had THE WHEELS OFF THE GROUND. haha Face palm #2.  

I can already see im going to max out the total size of the uploads so ill have to figure something out for the rest of the pics. After playing around in there, sticking an inspection mirror in there and spinning the wheels, engaging and disengaging the parking brake and watching everything move, along with looking at the parts drawings everything started to make a lot of sense. Post 2 shortly....

 

Never mind, found out being a supporter alleviated the picture issue. Happy to do so. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by BrianK

[roadapples 6,983]

If you become a support member you can post all the pictures you (we) want. Well worth it for what you will learn here and helps keep this site going...

[pfrederi 17,886]

The grove on my parts shaft is .054  so I guess it may be one of the later/upgraded ones...at least I assume the upgrade used thicker/stronger snap rings.

[BrianK 58]

Here is the strainer. Nothing major on it but it was obvious it was doing its job. Looks almost new.

 

 

 

 

 

I then moved on to the motor and pump assembly. Here's where I became a little nervous/ cautious because this is where the previous owner pointed when describing his issues and the broken snap ring.

 Everything looked good so far. No contaminants. I took off this retaining plate and quickly realized it wasn't going to get me anywhere yet.  I thought it might be small enough to prevent the shaft and pump assembly from being removed through the back side...nope, dead end for now. Put it back on and flipped it over. 

 

I was prepared to find some more chunks considering the second retaining clip inside the housing...which by the way, the previous owner showed me a picture of the shaft sticking out of the output side 4 inches, which would indicate to me that the retaining clip inside the pump housing failed. I took the outer cover off to expose the bearing and shaft where he said he replaced the ring. 

 

Again, everything looks good. Odd there was no damage from the ring breaking, maybe he replaced it. 

 

I removed the ring and housing to expose the pump and then looked at the back side. Bingo.  If you look close enough to the ball cage edges,they're chewed up. My guess is it was removed and installed backwards. The bearing spins smooth as glass and there's no play so I decided against my better judgement to leave it for now. Easy enough to replace later. OH, and the cover was installed upside down. Not sure what effect that would have had on pressurizing the system aside from forward being reverse and vice versa but I didn't even get the wheels to spin at this point so whatever. Everything else looked great, no damage to the thrust washer or housing. Moving on;

 

From here I inspected the pump. No damage anywhere. In one of the pictures on the bottom slipper face it looks like a gouge but its just reflection from the oil. However there is some galling on the shaft from the obvious failure. Not sure how bad it was, but its been worn smooth at this point. 

 

All in all, aside from a little corrosion on the slippers it looks pretty daggum good. Only now was the part that hung me up. I couldn't get the pump housing off.  After a while drooling on the manual I finally found the removal procedure for the shaft. Using a press to push down on it to "pop" the retaining clip loose? Uhhh ok, well I don't have a press and i'd probably get some funny looks from the 3rd shift crew at work when I show up with this thing at 1am. Nah, not gonna do it. haha. Even though I didn't see inside, what this DID tell me is that the spring and retaining clip inside the pump housing are working because I would push down on the shaft and it would spring back to position with a hard stop. The shaft rotated very smoothly and while I REALLY wanted to get in there for an inspection since I was this far in...if it aint broke. At this point I shifted to the pump attached to the motor. 

 

 

  Initially I thought I saw a spring in this charge valve. I was wrong, and your're looking at that right, there's NOTHING in there. No spring and no ball. Oddly enough there was the spring and plug in the implement valve.  It was about this point I looked at the tag on the pump and saw 90-1173.  Huh? Everything looked to be identical but further research told me they didn't use this pump until 1978, a year after the C-160 was discontinued so who knows. I decided then I was going to take the original pump to work and rip it to pieces. I then called it a night. 

 

Saturday morning was a fun and interesting one. I stopped at Ace to see what they had for individual ball bearings and springs because im extremely impatient. Wouldn't ya know, they had ONE tray and happened to have 7/16ths so I bought 4 to get some sort of standard deviation and to pick the one that was most concentric. I was also able to find some very comparable springs for the charge side so I bought a few of those to test. They would also need to be shortened a hair so in case I messed one up.  I took the pump to work along with my manual and got the attention of one of the senior mechanics, very good with hydraulics and pumps, and we looked through the flow diagrams and parts drawings in the manual. He became quite interested in the variable displacement/ geroter assembly as we mainly work with standard gear and vane pumps at work. Typically about 5 times the size.  Anyway, with all that going on I forgot to take before and after pictures of the breakdown and how dirty it was. There were contaminants throughout the end cap and inside the housing. I did a full disassembly and inspection. Took each part through our parts solvent tank. Dried the parts, blew them all out with dried compressed air and then degreased everything with non-chlorinated parts cleaner. It's labeled "mold cleaner/degreaser" for our injection molds but its basically brake cleaner. Then I blew it out again and re-assembled using Mobil-1 10-30.  To our surprise there was no damage anywhere. The slippers, retaining ring, slipper faces, housing, thrust plate, swash plate, valve plate and face, geroter assembly, spring, needle bearing etc was great. Awesome right? The PO just had it sitting in an uncovered bucket in his garage so it was never ran with the contamination.  Turns out there ARE shims in the implement side of BOTH the original and replacement pumps. I just couldn't tell they were in there because theyre the same color and size as the back of the implement plug and they were hydrolocked in there with oil. It wasn't until the cleaning began and we gave them a smack face down did they come out. Cool. So the replacement pump attached to the motor had no ball and no spring. The original pump had no ball.  I checked for concentricity on the balls and 2 of the 4 I measured were within half a tenth of .4375 so they will work in the meantime. Do you guys think I should order a stainless one or one with a specific rockwell? Im unaware of the material of the balls from ace. I have no idea what kind of impact the ball is facing in the valve. I would think we dont want it too hard to avoid chipping and introducing metal fragments. Im probably overthinking it. Thoughts?

 

 

 

I got her home, swapped components to the refurbished pump and complete valve assemblies and attached it to the motor and then prepped all the mating faces for assembly to the trans. 

 

I have two questions here.  What is the part that goes in the cam plate that attaches to the speed control linkage? All my parts drawings stop showing parts at the cam plate. I found one picture google searching it on a different tractor that shows me some type of threaded shaft that is nutted on the linkage but I cant see whats going into the hole in the plate to actuate it. 

 

Secondly, I appear to be missing one of the cam retaining plates. Should I look for one of these on ebay or would it be easier if I just made one? I think I just answered that question.

 

I also bought a replacement filter for the change, obviously, but I had the guy at Napa cross reference the part number on the old filter and he came up with diddlly. No brand name or logo.  Comparing the two, I see some obvious differences but maybe one of you guys knows what that red filter is, or is for? I prefer Wix/Napa Gold(made by Wix) anyway so I feel better with the Napa filter on. 

 

 

 Anyway, I reassembled and filled her up. I'm not sure if its required but I turned the pulley pump by hand to prime oil into the system until it was about to come out of the top pressure test port. Then I started it. First with the tow valve open. I don't know why, it just felt like a good idea with the system being pressurized for the first time. Then I engaged the pump for a while, looked and listened, then turned it off and closed the valve.

 

IMG_5434.MOV

 

IT WORKS! I hope the video I uploaded works for you guys.  SWEET. I have no idea what it was that actually fixed it since there was a few things going on here but its running. Looking at the flow charts in the manual, it looks to me (correct me if im wrong) like if the charge valve ball isnt there, the pump is constantly trying to charge the lift. When you try to move, the pump sends high pressure to the acceleration valves but the high pressure flows right past the charge valve into the lift circuit and back to the implement side so you constantly have a an open circuit and no high pressure is formed. I guess similar to opening the tow valve.  

 

Pretty cool...but then I tried using the lift.  It was already all the way up, but i couldn't release pressure. It wouldn't let me drop it at all. I thought something was hung up mechanically but when I pushed in on the lift handle it was barely moving and I thought it needed more movement than that. It's just a 2 way valve but it would only let me press in about 3/16ths of an inch.  I was going to call it a night and read about it to see if I was missing anything but I was bothering me so I decided to go after it. 

 

 

YEP, that's an implement shim!

After reassembly that's working now too!  I'm not done yet, but everything is functioning on this tractor!   There is still much work to be done, but for now these major issues appear to be solved. So far this think is fixed for $1.35. Thank you for everyones insight so far. I haven't put the wheels to the ground yet but that leads me to my next question for ya'll.  I know this is an open differential but with it being hydro it adds a little confusion to me in its operation.  When I put in in reverse and try to stop one of the wheels, I can and the other will spin. Seems normal. When I apply rotational resistance to both wheels at the same time the torque increases and there's no stopping those axles from turning.  However when I do this in forward at slow speeds and apply pressure to both wheels, I don't get much resistance on both but the left rear wheel will twist my arm off. The right wheel stays pretty weak.  Is this normal? Similar to the "one wheel wonder" trucks where torque was mainly applied to one side before limited slip differentials came about? Or should I be looking somewhere like the forward acceleration valve.

 

 Thanks for sticking with me guys, this is a lot of fun, frostbite aside. You guys are great.      

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by BrianK

[pfrederi 17,886]

Lots to digest here sounds like you are doing really well.  Just as well you didn't try to press out the motor shaft...at least half the times i have broken the $16 spring clip.

 

I would borrow the gauge from work and run the pressure tests on the charge pump and the implement lift.  Especially since you have lost at least one shim and are using an unknown quantity for the charge relief spring.

 

You have to look at the tractor parts manual for the pin that operates the cam plate.  It is #6-54 in the picture part #6127.

Cam retaining plate try a want add here

Filters  I use wix 51521

[roadapples 6,983]

Persistence  pays off. I`d like to say some of us are learning a lot from a guy who  has only been here for nine days. Thanks for teaching some of us "old dogs" new tricks....

[Hacksawhero123 351]

This has been one of the most informative and interesting threads I've seen since I've been here. Thanks all. 

Mark

 

[BrianK 58]

8 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Lots to digest here sounds like you are doing really well.  Just as well you didn't try to press out the motor shaft...at least half the times i have broken the $16 spring clip.

 

I would borrow the gauge from work and run the pressure tests on the charge pump and the implement lift.  Especially since you have lost at least one shim and are using an unknown quantity for the charge relief spring.

 

You have to look at the tractor parts manual for the pin that operates the cam plate.  It is #6-54 in the picture part #6127.

Cam retaining plate try a want add here

Filters  I use wix 51521

 

Of COURSE, the tractor parts manual. I do have that one and its the only one I didn't look at. Face palm #3? 4? ha. Thank you for the picture and numbers because I cant seem to find the manual, its probably buried in the cluster that is my garage right now.  I may have to download it. 

 

Yea the manual says it doesn't take much pressure, however I was pressing down with quite a bit of body weight after the shaft bottomed out on the clip and nothin' so I thought it best to leave it. 

 

I'm going to grab the pressure gauge tomorrow. Everything we test is well over 1000psi so the gauges we have under that are just collecting dust in a filing cabinet. I might even leave one on.  I wen't ahead and used the charge valve spring from the original pump along with the shims but that leaves the other pump incomplete. I havent tried to modify or use the springs from the hardware store yet, and hopefully now I don't have to.

 

Is that a filter number for the trans or motor? I punched that number in a cross reference for napa/wix and it pulled up an automotive filter. I might be doing it wrong though, I dunno. I put in the hydraulic filter from Napa, 1410 and it pulled up a different Wix number than what you had so I might be goofin'. 

 

 

8 hours ago, roadapples said:

Persistence  pays off. I`d like to say some of us are learning a lot from a guy who  has only been here for nine days. Thanks for teaching some of us "old dogs" new tricks....

 

Thank you roadapples, that means a lot, and is very humbling. I hope ill be able to contribute much more as this progresses. 

 

4 hours ago, Hacksawhero123 said:

This has been one of the most informative and interesting threads I've seen since I've been here. Thanks all. 

Mark

 

 

Thank you, Mark. I have to say If someone can learn from what im doing and what the other are contributing or find what im doing interesting, or even both, that is just about as rewarding to me as getting this horse runnin'.  I'm sure im the one that's doing most of the learning but that's just fine by me, its a blast. 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by BrianK