C-160 Unidrive Questions

[Texas Todd 1,025]

I recently began a restoration on a C-160. Where it looked like this Thursday.

It Now looks like this:

The first thing I noticed was the right hub was jambed up against the unidrive case.

I was able to bang it out where the end of the axle was flush with the outside of the hub and tighten the set screw.

The axle moves side to side about 1/8" - 3/16" give or take. It spins freely with no strange sounds.  The "fluid" drained was about 50% water then the oil started flowing. It drove and shifted easily into all gears before disassembly.

 

When I removed the belt cover the input pulley was clearly loose as a goose and came right off the shaft.  What holds it on other than the woodruff key?

The woodruff key has a shoulder that has formed on it. I don't know if this is what let it slide right off.

 

There is an apparent seal leak of the input shaft.

 

After cleaning it up, this is what I had.  The hole in the end of the input shaft does not appear to be threaded, but I was curious if it was and it had a washer and bolt to hold the pulley on the shaft?

Can the seal just be removed with a pick of some sort and then another pressed in? The input shaft moved about 1/16" in and out.  Less than the axle.

It does not appear that any of the other seals are bad.

The woodruff slot in the input shafts looks good.

 

 

 

 

 

So my questions are:

Is the side to side play of the axle a concern?

Is the seal simply pried out and replaced? My research on Redsquare shows the correct seal to be SKF7410, just confirming.

Is the side to side play of the input shaft a concern?

Is there something that holds the pulley onto the shaft other than the woodruff key?

Are these woodruff keys hard to find? I have been reading that some are.

 

Any other observations are appreciated.  Thanks!

 

Edited October 23, 2016 by HD-Horse
re-ordered

[pfrederi 17,912]

In and out movement of the axle of 1/8" is OK  However should be absolutely no up down front to rear movement.

 

Input pulley is held on by the Woodruff key and set screw.  Your woodruff key is toast.

 

Edit:  Check the pinned topic at the top of this forum I think you want 6105 for the input shaft seal.

Edited October 23, 2016 by pfrederi

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Thank you pfrederi. Not sure where I got the other number.

It also appears that the correct woodruff key is #6 

There is no movement up and down or forward to back. Thanks again.

[Racinbob 11,260]

Put the transmission in 3rd gear. You will feel it slip into the detents on the shifter rails. There should be no in/out play on the input shaft. If there is, it means the input gear is partially disengaging from the 3rd gear and there will be problems.

You are correct on the axle seals.

The in/out play on the axles is ok.

The input gear has a setscrew. New keys are hardware store items.

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Thanks! When I shift into 3rd and keep a little pressure on the shifter in that direction there is no movement. Maybe a pound or two of pressure, not much at all, just keeping the shifter all the way to the left. If I let go of the shifter it settles back a fraction and I get that little bit of movement.

[Racinbob 11,260]

You might get away with that but I don't like it. It will be running in the detent and the amount of play you have is the amount the gears are disengaging. I've resolved this situation with arbor shims. I bought a variety pack from Grainger and experimented until I was happy. Just slip it on the input shaft.

[Texas Todd 1,025]

I am trying to avoid cracking the case, but if I end up doing so I will try the shim route. Thanks!

It plays the same amount in all the other gears whether I put pressure on the stick or not.

[Racinbob 11,260]

It won't have an effect on the other gears, just in 3rd. The inner teeth of the 3rd/2nd gear are somewhat of a weak spot for these transmissions. 

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Okay, thanks again!

[stevasaurus 22,884]

If you are getting any side to side or up and down movement where the axle comes out of the axle housing, you have a bad bearing and you will have to open the transmission to fix it.  You got a lot of water out of there and then oil...it is worth opening up...especially since you have other issues.    The input shaft seal is SKF # 6105.  Bob and Paul are both right in what they are telling you, and we will all 3 help walk you through fixing your trans.    That axle seal on the right side has been leaking for a while...if you have movement up and down and side to side...that bearing is bad... in and out should be about 1/8"...  

 

Edited October 23, 2016 by stevasaurus

[Shynon 7,461]

16 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

You got a lot of water out of there and then oil...it is worth opening up...especially since you have other issues

 I would agree since you are doing a restore do it right the first time, then you will know what you have no surprises later

[Racinbob 11,260]

Another . I would open it up just to fix the in/out play on the input shaft in 3rd. I'm sure many 3523 gears have fell victim to this. You already said there's no play other than in/out on the axles so those bearings should be fine. But there's more that should be inspected. Don't be intimidated. Once you do it you'll know why I'm saying that. You'll have plenty of help here. 

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Okay. The only play on the axle or input is in and out. A wee bit more on the axles than the input shaft. I would rather do it right and must admit I am curious to see what it looks like in there. Is there a tutorial on crackin the baby? Do I have to remove the hubs? I am really clueless about what to do to get that process going. I ordered the seal and woodruff key. So I will have that soon. Guess I should order a gasket too!

Thanks guys. I will be leaning on you for advice.

[stevasaurus 22,884]

I'm confused a little.  At first you said you had side to side movement of your one of your axles...that is a bad bearing.  If you do not have side to side or up and down movement, then you may be OK.  In and out is a different animal and at least 1/8" is expected.

   Did you just get this horse??  How long has the water been in there??  You may get by with a flush, but since you have it all apart anyway...why not go in there and see what you really have.  It would be a shame to go this far and then skimp on what really counts...for a few bucks.  You would be just cleaning out rust and putting in new seals at this point...maybe a bearing or two.  Yes we have some good threads that will show you pictures and some videos of the same.  Don't just tear into the trans...let us know when and if you are going to do it.  The 3 of us are home most of the day...you can probably get some help at any time in a few minutes. 

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Vernacular and perspective can be confusing for sure.  I was saying side to side as I had a birds eye view (top down) perspective. Looking at the transmission from the 3 oclock position, thus only seeing one hub (side view) it would be in and out. No up and down or forward to back movement but the slight in and out.

That is awesome that help is available during the week day. I have a choice tomorrow, media blast and grind or crack er open....

 

And yes, Steve, I just got the horse last week. They guy I bought it from said his Dad bought it new and that it spent most of its life, covered (but certainly not the last few years).

 

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by HD-Horse

[stevasaurus 22,884]

I think you will be happy opening it up and taking a look.  If you can tear down the horse and put it back together, you can certainly check out a transmission.  Here is the manual...your #5091 transmission is in "Section V".  I will also give you a couple of threads with pictures and videos.  Take a look at these first before you start. 

492-4004.pdf (application/pdf Object)

 

This trans is not yours, but a lot like it.  This is a 10 pinion differential, yours is an 8 pinion and is easier then the 10.

 

This is your trans but no videos...just lots of pictures.  This thread is really good.

 

 

[Texas Todd 1,025]

I watched your video this morning. So to get the case off, the hubs need to come out, brake side faces up and the case slides up and off?

Does the gear shifter and high-low shifter have to come off to accomplish the case removal?

 

I am going to go and clean the rest of it to work with something sort of clean and then will check back. I appreciate your assistance!

[pfrederi 17,912]

You have the right idea. on the hubs and case halves

 

You should remove them.  The HiLo is held on with a roll pin you drive out.  The gear shift is held in with a dog point set screw  Loosen the lock nut and the back out the set screw (it is an allen head) The shift lever will lift right out.

[stevasaurus 22,884]

Yes, you have to pull the hubs, brake drum, and you might as well pull the input pulley.  You do have to pull the main shifter, but not the hi/low shifter at this time...and then the left side of the case will come off.    I'll check in and out during the day today.

 

Paul beat me to it. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by stevasaurus

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Well, I went ahead and got everything off except the left hub. And I suppose someone will say that I shouldn't use a 3 prong puller....Well, you are right. If I ever get it off I am in the market for a new hub. Any ideas on how to get this fractured rascal off?

If the shifter and what I can see in the hole is any indication, it pretty nasty in there....

 

[pfrederi 17,912]

If you have a big enough flange puller try pulling against the back end of the hub...Picture is of pulling a D series hub from the back.  It finally worked, worse hub I have ever come across

 

 

 

or try cutting a deep grove/slot parallel to the axle  (angle grinder or even a reciprocating saw.)  cut down till you are close to the axle then put some blocking under the hub and use a chisel and BFH in the groove/slot to split the hub.

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by pfrederi

[Texas Todd 1,025]

I like it when someone suggests using a BFH!!!

 

Good point. The hub doesn't need to stay intact!

If anyone has a 1-1/8" hub for sale, please let me know!

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Okay, the angle grinder and BFH worked again. Getting the woodruff key out was quite the challenge as well.  All of the case bolts are out. Is there anything else I need to know or do to get the case half off?

It is brake side up.

I'm not going to attempt the other hub at this point, unless there is some good reason to...although it should come off easier at it is the one that was over against the case to begin with. Whacking the wheel moved it back out.

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,884]

OMG...you are going to be so glad you went into this trans.  You can leave the other hub on for now...if you fell like really screwing around, you can open the differential in place and get the snap ring off and just have the axle and the hub in your hand.  I just gave WHX8 my one and only 1 1/8" hub 2 weeks ago.  Don't worry, they are out there, and they are not expensive.  If you get the chance, make a hub puller like this.  The one Paul is showing is to die for.    Do you have access to a parts cleaner?  It will make the cleanup much nicer...if not...I use a paint tray with diesel fuel and a good brush to get down to it, and then a wire wheel on the grinder to get is all clean.  It is a nasty job, but well worth it.  Take some pictures and show us how good or bad it is.  Hub puller...top right.

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by stevasaurus

[Texas Todd 1,025]

Looks like a good one.  I am a little gun shy on being heavy handed now. What is the best way to separate the case halves? I have pried a little and can't get it to budge.