8 speed question

[Ed Kennell 38,759]

I have had a '70 raider for several years and I see it has a  #5073  8 speed.

The   '80-'84 C 105  I picked up Thursday has a #103916   8 speed.

The '77 C-160 I got yesterday has a # 5091 8 speed.

Can anyone tell me the difference and which one is the strongest?

Also noticed the shift lever cover plates are different.

  The Raider..no cover

 

The C105.....normal

 

 

 

 

  And the C-160.....what was the x-tra notch for between reverse and first?

 

I may have figured it out while looking at the picture.   Was it for clearance to get the plate off the shifters?

[Wheel-N-It 2,969]

LOL, I don't know the answers to any of your questions Ed but I'm just as curious!  If I may add questions to your questions, I would like to know how the transmissions rate ( strength wise )  on my two 416-8 Wheel Horse's. Also on the 418-8. One 416 has a K341, the other a M16. The 418 of course is a M18. Are either one of these a limit slip? Did Wheel Horse even have limited slip available?

[pfrederi 17,911]

23 minutes ago, Wheel-N-It said:

LOL, I don't know the answers to any of your questions Ed but I'm just as curious!  If I may add questions to your questions, I would like to know how the transmissions rate ( strength wise )  on my two 416-8 Wheel Horse's. Also on the 418-8. One 416 has a K341, the other a M16. The 418 of course is a M18. Are either one of these a limit slip? Did Wheel Horse even have limited slip available?

Neither are limited slip.  They had that back in 60/70s on Charger, Raiders and Electros

[Ed Kennell 38,759]

So the 5073 in my '70 Raider is LS,  Paul?

 

Where's the Dino, he might have some answers Van.

[Wheel-N-It 2,969]

1 minute ago, Ed Kennell said:

So the 5073 in my '70 Raider is LS,  Paul?

 

Where's the Dino, he might have some answers Van.

Dino!!!  Where are you???

[slammer302 2,155]

The Raider 10 should have the 10 pinion limited slip trans but in most I've had the limited slip doesn't work because the mechanism is broke inside. The notch by the shifter is for a latch on the models that had the seat pan that raises. 

[Ed Kennell 38,759]

I just checked the manuals for my three 8speeds.   Paul is correct, the 70 raider with the # 5073 is a 10 pinion limited slip.

The 77 C-160 with the #103907 is  a 10 pinion.

The 80 C 105 with the #103916 is a 8 pinion.

 

All are 1,125" axles.   Still not sure which one is strongest.

[slammer302 2,155]

I've heard the 8 pinion is the better of the 3

[Ed Kennell 38,759]

OK that answers 2 of the questions....  Slammer and Paul.

 

Van, go to the WH list by years and get the numbers for your trannys,  then go to the manuals, trannys, and find your numbers.

4 minutes ago, slammer302 said:

I've heard the 8 pinion is the better of the 3

I think I may have also heard that from the pullers.

 

That fits my plans perfectly as the C-105 is the one I planned to part out and use the tranny for my low rider dragster/puller.   Thanks again Slammer.

[Wheel-N-It 2,969]

Thank you Ed !

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Where is Steve?  @stevasaurus

[Racinbob 11,257]

The 5073 is a 10 pinion limited slip. The 103916 and 5091 are 8 pinion and for all practical purposes identical.

 

Ed, the 103907 on your C-160 is actually an 8 pinion. The 8 pinion transmissions are the strongest but don't fret about the 10 pinion not being strong. But, as already mentioned, it's likely the limited slip is no longer working. Service bulletin #252 refers to the conversion from a 10 pinion to an 8 pinion but it was due to replacement parts for the 10 pinion no longer being available.

[stevasaurus 22,883]

Hi guys...what's up?? 

RacinBob hit the nail on the head.

The 5091, 103907, 103916 and the 103918 are all basically the same...8 pinion differentials with 1 1/8" axles.

The 5073 is the only 10 pinion limited slip transmission that has the brake drum on the cluster gear shaft.  The brake drum placement is the same in the transmissions I mentioned right above that. 

   Pullers like the 8 pinion differential better  and it is stronger for that reason.  The 10 pinion LS (if the spring in the differential is doing it's thing) may be better for doing what a "garden tractor" was built for.  If you have ever had one tire slipping on ice and the horse will not move...you know what I mean. 

   Slammer mentioned the "mechanism being broke" and that was the reason for the 10 pinion LS to not work.  Actually, that is not a correct statement.  The spring that holds the pinions in place is what makes the LS work.  If that spring is broke, you would know it, as you would not be able to drive the horse.  What happens...that spring becomes weak and then the differential acts like a regular 8 pinion differential.  A test for that differential to work...put the front of your horse up against a tree and put it in 1st gear and let out the clutch...both wheels should be turning and digging into the ground. 

    Ed, sometimes the guys pulling will "lock" the 8 pinion differential so both wheels do the pulling.  It makes it hard to steer though.  The differential has the pinions "1 up and the next 1 down".  To lock the differential, you put 2 pinions up and the next 2 down. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by stevasaurus

[DennisThornton 4,769]

 @stevasaurus  " limited slip" is certainly a plus if it works but perhaps first of all, did the 10 pinion perform well when new?  Can that "spring" issue in the "10 pinion" be addressed with parts available today?  With no 4wd, no independent wheel brakes "limited slip sure sounds good, but is it, was it ever, what it should be with WHs?

 

[bmsgaffer 2,045]

I have a limited slip going in my 854, but I have no experience yet.

 

From what I hear on the forum, but limited slip worked extremely well when it worked. There are quite a few people that prefer them for snow removal tasks. The down side is that it wore out and stopped working. Some say they are a bit weaker then the 8 pinions in heavy ground engagement, but should be fine for most activites. 

 

There is an internal spring that softens or wears out over time, but it looks simple enough to manufacturer? I know @wheelhorseman1000 got the 1533 bearings back into production, maybe he has a connection? 

[Racinbob 11,257]

My dad bought a 1970 Raider 12 new and yes, it worked well for a while. He worked it hard mowing several acres, rototilling, pushing snow, etc. By the time I bought a new 1976 apparently it was worn enough not to work well. Seemingly it was fine when the rear end was jacked up but when actually using it the limited slip wasn't noticeable. But, that tractor was in the family for over 30 years and other than the limited slip function it never had any other issues.

[stevasaurus 22,883]

I know threads exist here concerning that spring and making new ones.  A search will bring them up and they are worth taking a look at.  Here is a video of me rebuilding a 10 pinion differential...also worth watching as you can see that the pinions actually "float" in this style of differential, and I give you a good look at the spring and what it does.  I think Wheel Horse really liked the idea of Limited slip, and when working, it was excellent for garden tractor needs.  They used it from 1967 to 1973 in 16 of the kinds of horses built during those years...usually the Raiders, but also the 867, 1067, 1267...and a couple of "no-names" in 1973.