New Owner, Sudden Problem!

[ohiofarmer 3,314]

49 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

That is one of the safety switches in the starter system. I know you were attempting to be helpful, but please don't interject your problems while we are troubleshooting the symptoms jellyghost is having, it just confuses the issue and by his own admission he is a bit of a novice. We are doing a systematic check of components to see what works. The switch you are referring to will not cause the engine to suddenly die like his did. We don't need to have him chasing every rabbit hole!

 

You are correct about that switch not causing the tractor to die once it is running. However, the OP was talking about replacing a solenoid that MIGHT not need replacing. I did mention that the switch was pretty well hidden and if the pedal was out of adjustment like mine was that it could keep the tractor from starting. Others , including you mentioned the wire to and from this switch could be open and needs to be tested.

 

 All I wanted to add is that there was a switch in the wire and it could fail or be out of adjustment and perhaps save the owner from buying a solenoid that he might not need. Back to my rabbit hole I will go

[rmaynard 15,791]

I've been reading this thread and there is something that bothers me. If this is a C-101 with an original engine, all 1978 and 1979 C-101's came equipped with a K241AS-46766D engine, which is NOT magneto, but battery ignition. You said it is a magneto system. Find the label on the engine and give us the numbers.

 

[jellyghost 378]

I thought all of the safety switches were disconnected by removing the black wire.  Because the tractor didn't start with the ignition when the black wire was removed, I thought the bad safety switch hypothesis was eliminated.

Is my simple understanding correct?  If so, is the PTO switch a safety switch?

[rmaynard 15,791]

PTO switch is a safety switch, but did you get the spec number off your engine?

 

The reason I ask is if you do indeed have a magneto, that black wire should be a "kill" wire, meaning that touching it to ground will stop the engine. Any voltage applied to the wire will damage the magneto.

[jellyghost 378]

I just connected the small terminal of the solenoid to the solenoid power feed.  It did not fire.  Edit:  It did not crank.  I don't know if it fired.

Just to make sure, I here is a pic of my solenoid.  The power feed is on the rhs of the pic, and the small/starter terminal is on the top of the pic.

Edited September 11, 2016 by jellyghost

[953 nut 56,694]

4 hours ago, rmaynard said:

C-101 with an original engine, all 1978 and 1979 C-101's came equipped with a K241AS-46766D engine, which is NOT magneto, but battery ignition.

A previous post prompted me to ask the question about the type of ignition system. In post # 12 he said the engine had been rebuilt and new wiring was done; only reason I could think of was the replacement engine was a different type ignition system which the owner confirmed by looking on the internet. As he said, he is not a "black thumb" so we are taking this one step at a time.

 

[wallfish 17,166]

7 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

 It did not fire.

Does this mean it did not start but did crank over? Or does this mean nothing happened at all?

Connecting those 2 terminals should engage the starter but has nothing to do with spark.

Edited September 11, 2016 by wallfish

[rmaynard 15,791]

Where does your spark plug wire come from? Under the sheet metal or out of the top of one of these?

 

[jellyghost 378]

Even though I check this thread once an hour, I missed a few posts!  Here is a pic of the ignition to answer the Magneto question.

Edited September 11, 2016 by jellyghost

[953 nut 56,694]

To clarify the ignition system question could you post a photo of the front of the engine where the black wire is located? Also, I was about to ask the same question John just asked. Lets establish a vocabulary here;

starter turning the engine over = crank

spark plug getting power = fire

                                                                                                               

[jellyghost 378]

19 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Does this mean it did not start but did crank over? Or does this mean nothing happened at all?

Connecting those 2 terminals should engage the starter but has nothing to do with spark.

 

Nothing happened.

11 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

Where does your spark plug wire come from? Under the sheet metal or out of the top of one of these?

 

I think it comes from one of these.  Sorry if I messed up the diagnosis process.  Edit:  I just confirmed it.  It comes from one of these.

Edited September 11, 2016 by jellyghost

[rmaynard 15,791]

If the plug wire comes from an ignition coil as pictured, then you have a BATTERY ignition system, not a magneto.

[wallfish 17,166]

Bad solenoid.

Edited September 11, 2016 by wallfish

[rmaynard 15,791]

This should be the way it is wired.

 

 

[jellyghost 378]

1 hour ago, wallfish said:

So solenoid or starter or wiring or ground  is bad.

Try jumping the starter from the + battery to the little post directly on the starter

 

I think that I tried this when 953 nutt had me touch the two big terminals on the solenoid.  The starter fired (Edit: it cranked) when I did this test.

Edited September 11, 2016 by jellyghost

[wallfish 17,166]

Bad solenoid is my guess. Somehow my last post edited with this

[jellyghost 378]

Here is the wiring diagram that came with the owner's packet.  I notice at least one small difference.

 

[rmaynard 15,791]

What did you see that is different?

[953 nut 56,694]

45 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

Sorry if I messed up the diagnosis process.

Trust me, you are not the firs and won't be the last, we are hare to help and I'm glad we are making progress. 

Since the solenoid did not respond to the jumper it may be bad. However, that didn't cause it to shut down. Do you have an electric multi- meter? If not you may want to invest in one, the low priced ones are fine. 

Remove the wire from the "+" terminal of the ignition coil and run a jumper wire from the battery "+" terminal to the coil "+". Now take the pliers and jump the solenoid; it should "crank" and "fire". If it fires and runs you can shut it off by removing the wire from the battery. 

Let us know what you find and we will go from there.

[jellyghost 378]

1 hour ago, rmaynard said:

What did you see that is different?

 

In the first posted diagram, I see a 25 amp fuse that does not appear in the second diagram.  I have confirmation via a postmark that this machine was purchased in 1978.  Could it be a leftover 1977 model that was sold in 1978?

I will get to work on 953's suggestion, and I am going to retest the solenoid with a different jumping device.  Maybe I melted the little cable with my last attempt at jumping.

I think that I have a multimeter, but I don't know how to use it.  I will watch a "how to" video.

I am in love with this thing even though it sits lifeless.  My wife's attitude is becoming skeptical.

[jellyghost 378]

These results replace the previous results.  I did this with better equipment and knowledge.

 

With and without the black wire connected to the keyed ignition, the large engine "cranks" when I bypass the solenoid touching the two large terminals.  It also cranks when I jump the small terminal with the power terminal.

 

With the black wire connected to the keyed ignition, I jumped the two big terminals on the solenoid, and I provided power from the battery directly to the ignition coil.  The engine cranked, and there was combustion in the engine (same as fired?).  I think it would have run, but jumping both of those wires was kind of tenuous.  I didn't sustain the combustion long enough to idle.   

 

In my understanding of the wiring diagram, this points towards a bad "PTO Interlock Switch" or one of the other two safety switches.  Correct?

[rmaynard 15,791]

1 hour ago, jellyghost said:

 I have confirmation via a postmark that this machine was purchased in 1978.  Could it be a leftover 1977 model that was sold in 1978?

No. The first two digits of your engine serial number indicate that it was made in 1978.

[953 nut 56,694]

1 hour ago, jellyghost said:

points towards a bad "PTO Interlock Switch" or one of the other two safety switches.  Correct?

  Solenoid and ignition system are doing their jobs. Take a moment and replace the batteries in your Multi- meter, watch those videos and get ready to check out the PTO switch, would have gone their earlier but we need to know for sure the other components were OK. I will work up a plan for you and post it soon.

[953 nut 56,694]

I did a little redrawing of the PTO switch  so you can see what is going on with that switch on and off. Also, open this manual and look at page 8 for a bit more info.

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by 953 nut

[jellyghost 378]

If I understand correctly, I use the multimeter to determine when the terminals are open and closed, and I move the pto lever back and forth to check them in both positions.  If the pto switch is functioning properly, I will get the readings indicated on the diagram.