New Owner, Sudden Problem!

[jellyghost 378]

Here are the results:

One of the prongs is bent and mangled.  I tried to show this with the pictures.  This prong belongs to the black circuit.

 

When testing the red circuit with wires connected, it came back open in both pto lever positions.

When testing the red circuit with wires disconnected, it came back closed when the pto lever was up, and open when the pto lever was down.

When testing the black circuit with wires connected, it came back closed in both pto lever positions.

When testing the black circuit with wires disconnected, it came back open in both pto lever positions.

 

[MountainTopHunter 19]

I had the same thing happen on my C-175.  I was mowing and it started getting dark.  The instant I turned my lights on the engine quit.  The wire going to the lights was touching the muffler and shorted the fuse.  I put in a new fuse, taped up the wire and routed the wire so that it couldn't touch the muffler.

[jellyghost 378]

1 hour ago, MountainTopHunter said:

I had the same thing happen on my C-175.  I was mowing and it started getting dark.  The instant I turned my lights on the engine quit.  The wire going to the lights was touching the muffler and shorted the fuse.  I put in a new fuse, taped up the wire and routed the wire so that it couldn't touch the muffler.

 

I don't think this caused my mower to suddenly stop, but my wire has the same problem.

[Callen 64]

In your picture of the back of your ignition switch, I see 2 red wires in the background. Are they connected to anything? I see an empty terminal on the back of the switch.

[rmaynard 15,434]

7 hours ago, Callen said:

In your picture of the back of your ignition switch, I see 2 red wires in the background. Are they connected to anything? I see an empty terminal on the back of the switch.

 

I notice that as well. Here is your switch back, labeled . The "I" terminal (where the ignition circuit begins) has nothing attached to it.

Edited September 12, 2016 by rmaynard

[jellyghost 378]

The I terminal had a black wire attached from the PTO, and I had that disconnected for testing.

 

8 hours ago, Callen said:

In your picture of the back of your ignition switch, I see 2 red wires in the background. Are they connected to anything? I see an empty terminal on the back of the switch.

The two red wires come from the light switch and go to the lights.

Edited September 12, 2016 by jellyghost

[rmaynard 15,434]

The wires from the "A" terminal, are for accessories and have nothing to do with the actual starting or running of the engine.

Trace the wire connected to the "R" terminal. It should  go directly to the output (B+) terminal of your regulator/rectifier. 

The green wire connected to "B" terminal should go to one side of the ammeter, through the ammeter directly to the large lug on the solenoid that is also connected to the (+) terminal of your battery;

The wire connected to the "S" terminal should go directly to one side of the PTO switch, out of the PTO switch, to the safety switch that is activated by your clutch pedal, and from there to the small lug on the solenoid;

There should be a wire connected to the "I" terminal. It should go to the PTO switch, to the seat switch, and then to the (+) side of the ignition coil.

 

Here is where a volt meter or a test light is needed.

 

When the key is turned off, you should only have power at the "B" terminal. If you don't, you may have a bad connect at the ammeter, or a bad ammeter. You can take both wires off of the back of the ammeter and hook them together, Be careful not to touch the exposed wires to ground. Check again for power at the "B" terminal. If you have power at "B", turn the key from the "off" position to the "run" position.  You should now have power at "B", "R". "I", and "A". When you turn the key to "Start", you should have power at "B", "R", "I", and "S".

 

Check this out, let me know the results, and we will continue from there.

 

 

[jellyghost 378]

2 hours ago, rmaynard said:

The wires from the "A" terminal, are for accessories and have nothing to do with the actual starting or running of the engine.

Trace the wire connected to the "R" terminal. It should  go directly to the output (B+) terminal of your regulator/rectifier. 

The green wire connected to "B" terminal should go to one side of the ammeter, through the ammeter directly to the large lug on the solenoid that is also connected to the (+) terminal of your battery;

The wire connected to the "S" terminal should go directly to one side of the PTO switch, out of the PTO switch, to the safety switch that is activated by your clutch pedal, and from there to the small lug on the solenoid;

There should be a wire connected to the "I" terminal. It should go to the PTO switch, to the seat switch, and then to the (+) side of the ignition coil.

 

Here is where a volt meter or a test light is needed.

 

When the key is turned off, you should only have power at the "B" terminal. If you don't, you may have a bad connect at the ammeter, or a bad ammeter. You can take both wires off of the back of the ammeter and hook them together, Be careful not to touch the exposed wires to ground. Check again for power at the "B" terminal. If you have power at "B", turn the key from the "off" position to the "run" position.  You should now have power at "B", "R". "I", and "A". When you turn the key to "Start", you should have power at "B", "R", "I", and "S".

 

Check this out, let me know the results, and we will continue from there.

 

 

 

Sorry to say that I need more hand holding.  I am not getting results that make sense to me, and I am not sure I am using the multimeter correctly.

 

I own:

https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-2207-21-M12-Fork-Meter/dp/B003V8Z706/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1473697182&sr=8-7&keywords=m12+electrical+milwaukee

https://www.amazon.com/Commercial-Electric-MAS830B-Digital-Multimeter/dp/B00G9J3JDQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1473697239&sr=8-2&keywords=commercial+multimeter

 

On either of these devices, what is the setting, and where do I touch the red and black sensors for a power check?

Thanks!

[rmaynard 15,434]

I don't know what kind of meter that is that you linked to, but all you need is something like this. You use the test leads to probe into connectors. $10.00 from Walmart.

Get your hands on one and we can walk you through the testing process.

 

 

 

 

Didn't see the second picture. That's what you need. Set the meter to DC voltage in a range higher than 12 volts, connect the black lead to ground, and probe the various connectors, wires, etc. with the red probe.

 

[jellyghost 378]

That is the same as one of my meters.

Edited September 12, 2016 by jellyghost

[953 nut 55,189]

9 hours ago, rmaynard said:

Check this out, let me know the results, and we will continue from there.

Thanks for jumping in to help Bob, I was working a Habitat for Humanity job all day and am getting cough up here. It appears that the PTO switch is the culprit but the tests you mentioned are a good idea too.     

[jellyghost 378]

I got a little help today from a friend who is more familiar with multimeters and engines.  We could not get a power reading from any of the terminals on the ignition switch.  We tested the multimeter with the battery, and that did give us a power reading.  

Does that sound like:  1.  Those guys don't know how to use a multimeter!  or 2.  Evidence that points towards a specific problem.

[953 nut 55,189]

Did we ever have you check the 25 amp fuse? Also, check for voltage at both terminals of the amp meter; Thinking back to the time the battery was hooked up backward we should have checked these.

[jellyghost 378]

13 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Did we ever have you check the 25 amp fuse? Also, check for voltage at both terminals of the amp meter; Thinking back to the time the battery was hooked up backward we should have checked these.

 

I will check this ASAP, but according to the wiring diagram that came with the tractor, there is not a 25 amp fuse.  According to the wiring diagram shared, it should have a 25 amp fuse.  Therefore, I am not sure it exits.

[rmaynard 15,434]

If the fuse doesn't exist, that's okay. If you put your black lead on ground, and the red lead on the B terminal on the ignition switch, you should get a reading of 12 volts. If not, put the red lead on one of the terminals on the back of the ammeter. You should have 12 volts on both terminals. If you only have voltage on one, then you have a bad ammeter.

[TDF5G 2,069]

I'm late to the party here, and I certainly don't want to add to the confusion.  But it's very easy to check the interlock (safety) switches with your ohm meter and that is where I would begin from the symptoms you are having.  Especially the seat switch.  They are simple to bypass also to help diagnose where you aren't getting current.  I'm sorry if you've already done this, I don't recall reading this fact if you have. 

Todd

Edited September 13, 2016 by TDF5G

[Tuneup 1,433]

Just to note as I had the similar issue - hand made wiring and old rusted components cause running death after they overheated. Little can be trusted. Maybe we should just get the solenoid power supply wire to the right terminal on the key switch through a fuse, the ignition wire straight to the coil and the start wire to the solenoid - just to get it running. If the ignition switch is good, he can mow all day and address all the safeties at a later date. Coil and solenoid are good so, almost there! For me, intermittent PTO switch, overheating ammeter and ignition switch, bad regulator. The only thing still original IS the solenoid. Good luck!

[jellyghost 378]

I am very thankful for all of this help, and this is a fun hobby. I need to get this thing going because my lawn is over a foot tall and my 2 yo hasn't gotten to meet the tractor.  For the sake of keeping things on the same page, I need to summarize this thread and some new results.  If my understanding is messed up, please post a correction or comment!  

 

The solenoid is good because it was successfully jumped.

The starting coil is good because it was successfully jumped.

The PTO switch is bad because it failed the open/closed circuit test, and it has visible damage.  I have been wondering if I should go ahead and order this part.

I need to check the ignition switch terminals and the ammeter terminals for voltage.  I have tried to do this, but I think I am not getting correct readings.  When the battery nodes are connected, there is a nice reading, but I don't get one anywhere else.  The tractor frame has been the ground, but it may be nullifying the results because the frame isn't really grounded.  Can you give me some advice on this issue?

The 25amp fuse does not appear to exist on this C-101.

 

[SylvanLakeWH 25,535]

15 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

 

The PTO switch is bad because it failed the open/closed circuit test, and it has visible damage.  I have been wondering if I should go ahead and order this part.

 

 

 

With visible damage and what you have described, I would get the order in or buy one... My money is on that switch at a minimum...

[jellyghost 378]

OH NO!

I had to take off a dash plate to access the amp meter nodes.  When I did this, one of the wires was disconnected from the amp meter.  I assumed that it happened when the plate was disturbed.  After sitting around in my house, I walked out and tried to start the tractor.  It started.  

 

So... what do I do with my evenings?!  

 

Apparently, the pto switch works, and I messed up the test.  I don't see how I messed that test up though...  

I have really appreciated all of this help.  The welcome here made me feel great about my purchase even though it failed on the first mow. I want another tractor already.  Thank you for being an awesome forum.

[953 nut 55,189]

10 hours ago, jellyghost said:

10 hours ago, jellyghost said:

 I want another tractor already.

      So glad you got it going, We all learn from each other and before long you will find another   and have even more fun One bit of unfinished  business;  !

[rmaynard 15,434]

One thing you will almost always find...it's usually something simple. That's why a good flashlight, a simple meter, and a good night's sleep will usually reveal the problem.

Glad you found the problem and reported back. Many times we will spend countless hours trying to help someone, and for one reason or another, we never hear from them again. 

 

Now go get another  to feed your addiction.

[jellyghost 378]

I hope to reveal it to my kids tonight and tape their reaction.  My son is into anything with an engine, and I have a cart to give them a ride.  I will try to do a show and tell soon.

[Tuneup 1,433]

Great news!!! Now that it's running, you can save the switch fixes for later. If you want to, you can take both the PTO and ignition switches apart and polish the terminals. I'm on my original PTO switch but the ignition switch was a rusted mess - not reliable. Check it all out at your leisure, now that you're not pressed for time.

[jellyghost 378]

59 minutes ago, Tuneup said:

Great news!!! Now that it's running, you can save the switch fixes for later. If you want to, you can take both the PTO and ignition switches apart and polish the terminals. I'm on my original PTO switch but the ignition switch was a rusted mess - not reliable. Check it all out at your leisure, now that you're not pressed for time.

 

I have been wondering about this.  Right before it started, I tried to order the pto switch through a few toro dealers and "repair clinic."  It appeared that no one had it in stock, and it cost about $70 when in stock.  Does that sound right?  I would like to see if the pto switch could be improved.