New Owner, Sudden Problem!

[jellyghost 378]

I am the proud new owner of a 1978 C-101.  I bought it yesterday, and it is in amazing condition.  Everything worked except the brake peddle and under chair safety cutoff.

I started mowing today, and everything was going great.  As it got late, I started using the lights.  

Suddenly, the mower stopped in the middle of a mow.

 

Here are the facts that seemed relevant to me:

The motor won't try to turn on when I turn the key.

The lights and the electrical won't turn on with the key and switch.

It has a new tank of gas and fresh oil.

I inspected the wires, and they look ok at first glance.

The WH has a car battery dated from April 2011.

 

I do not have a black thumb.  I am basically ignorant, but it seems like an electrical issue to me.  Could the battery have completely died even while running?  What do you guys think?  I was hoping to do a post showing this awesome mower, but this happened before I could!

[Dan Hankins 80]

Could have a charging issue and drained the battery

 

[jellyghost 378]

Two more things.  

I went to jump the battery, and sparks flew from the terminal in the tractor's battery. 

It has a John Deere seat.

12 minutes ago, Dan Hankins said:

Could have a charging issue and drained the battery

 

If I replace or charge the battery and this happens, would that prove this theory? 

[KC9KAS 4,741]

5 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

 

 

It has a John Deere seat.

Right there is your problem

[SylvanLakeWH 25,533]

I would check the safety switch under the seat again, as you mentioned that was a problem, and with a non-WH seat that could be your issue.... In addition, make sure your PTO is fully disengaged before you try to start it, as that has a safety switch as well... Finally, turn off the light switch and see if that does anything, since thats when it cut out... Just some suggestions...

 

And 

[rmaynard 15,434]

The C-101 has a cradle mount for the engine. The engine and starter grounding is done through the cradle to a cable that is connected to the frame. Make sure that ALL of your ground connections are good before you do anything else. I've seen sparks fly from the throttle cable because of a bad engine ground. A bad ground could be the reason for a dead battery, and running with the lights on could have been what helped to drain the battery to the point where it didn't have enough power to keep the ignition circuit going.

[Tonyp 284]

If something is working then all of a sudden  it's NOT, you gotta look at something real simple, like switches and safety devices.   

 

A simple $2 switch  will indeed shut down your machine, a bad connection on a switch  is a "shut down" waiting to happen.  

 

Being the proud new owner of a C series (whats not to be proud of  ! ) part of the process of getting it yard  ready includes checking/cleaning  all wiring connections as well as cleaning and checking connectors on  the safety switches and as mentioned above the PTO engaging.   Did you ever have a car that wouldn't  start because the battery  terminals were loose ?  I wonder how many people bought new batteries for that ! 

 

maintenance is about everything,including wiring and switches  not just the obvious stuff.  Don't forget, the C series is in the 35 year old window now.   

 

Great machine, let us know what the issue was !

Edited September 10, 2016 by Tonyp

[woodchuckfarmer 333]

Did you check the fuses ?     Wayne

[953 nut 55,184]

You were mowing with the lights on;  did they slowly get dim while you were mowing?  If the lights remained bright and suddenly quit working I would start by being sure the PTO switch is off and checking the wiring system. Inspect, clean and tighten all electrical connections. As others have said the safety switches or a fuse are the most likely culprits. The last download of this manual has your wiring diagram (section 6). This may be helpful.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by 953 nut

[Tuneup 1,433]

Sounds as if it's not charging and you toasted the battery through use. You need a multimeter to measure the battery voltage which I expect will be low. If it is, you would expect a huge spark when jumping as the current leaps into the discharged battery. When running, the voltage should be approaching 14V and stable, regardless of RPM. If you suspect safety switches, connect a battery positive lead to the (+) on the coil to bypass them all but you did say that the starter won't turn anymore - battery not charging. The aged wiring will start to heat through use as well. This happened on my C, among every other issue that might happen. You can rewire it very cheaply. She needs plenty of TLC considering her age to become reliable. Advice is to use a charger on that battery - too much stress on it using a jump scenario and if she isn't charging while running, will die as soon as the leads are disconnected.

[Pollack Pete 2,273]

My own opinion? 5 year old battery.You wrote that it has a car battery? Where did it fit?Possibly positive cable touching something and grounding it out? Buy the correct battery.

[jellyghost 378]

Although I am not mechanically inclined, this investigation has made me crawl over the machine, and I am impressed with the simplicity. 

 

Here is the new data:

The battery is fine.  It has a charge.

The wiring isn't new, but it isn't original either.  The engine was rebuilt in 1992, and the wiring looks about that age too. 

The only obvious damaged wiring is the wiring to the lights.  The wiring casing going to the lights has heat damage, and the damage appears to be from pressing against the motor.  Please correct me if I am wrong, but if the lights switch is off and the engine does not start, I don't see how this could be the problem. 

This C-101 has an aftermarket fuel pump installed.  I don't think I was using the pump when it died.

 

I hope to check fuses today (if I can find them).  The wiring diagram says that it only has two fuses, and one of these fuses is to the lights.

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by jellyghost

[jellyghost 378]

Sorry if this is boring for everyone, but I am a complete newb to working on engines.

 

Here is some more data:

According to the wiring diagram, there was one fuse on this model.  It separated auxiliary devices (lights and hour meter) from the rest of the system.  I found two new looking fuses.  One separated the lights, and the other one was for the fuel injection.  Both of them were intact.

The engine is properly grounded to the frame.

I was lazy and the battery colored wires were reversed.  When I hooked up my jump box, I put red on red and black on black.  So.... That is why the sparks were flying.

 

It seems like this could be related to three possible sources:

Solenoid

spark plug

safety switches

Regulator/rectifier

 

Based on the data, can any of these be ruled out?

Edited September 10, 2016 by jellyghost

[953 nut 55,184]

28 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

Regulator/rectifier

As you said the battery was charged this did not cause the problem of stalling out. It could have been damaged by the reverse polarity but we wii have to deal with that later.

I presume the engine still has a magneto ignition system. If so, the safety switches perform their function of stopping and preventing re-start of the engine by grounding out the magneto. If it has a battery type ignition system (like a older car with a coil)  they will open the circuit to the coil. Do you know what type it is? If not, can you post a photo of the front of the engine?

If you take a pair of pliers and put them across the two large terminals on the solenoid the starter should crank over, give it a try. 

Let us know how you do.

2 hours ago, jellyghost said:

only obvious damaged wiring is the wiring to the lights.

pull that fuse just to be on the safe side.

Edited September 10, 2016 by 953 nut

[rmaynard 15,434]

Rule of thumb. Never assume anything when jumping or charging a battery. 

 

Always look at the markings embossed on the battery near each lug. The cable from the (-) lug should always go to the frame. The cable from the (+) goes to the solenoid. Then, when charging or jumping, the red charger or jumper wire always goes to (+), and the black always goes to the (-) lug or the frame, and the same goes for hooking the jumper cable to the donor battery.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by rmaynard

[jellyghost 378]

2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

As you said the battery was charged this did not cause the problem of stalling out. It could have been damaged by the reverse polarity but we wii have to deal with that later.

I presume the engine still has a magneto ignition system. If so, the safety switches perform their function of stopping and preventing re-start of the engine by grounding out the magneto. If it has a battery type ignition system (like a older car with a coil)  they will open the circuit to the coil. Do you know what type it is? If not, can you post a photo of the front of the engine?

If you take a pair of pliers and put them across the two large terminals on the solenoid the starter should crank over, give it a try. 

Let us know how you do.

pull that fuse just to be on the safe side.

 

The engine has the magneto ignition system.  I verified this through a google image search of wheel horse magneto ignition.

I had the battery tested after reversing the polarity, so it is probably ok.

I will remove the fuse.

I look forward to trying the plier test!  I have a set of mini jumper cables from doing home electrical work.  I assume that I can use those instead of pliers.  

[953 nut 55,184]

6 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

The engine has the magneto ignition system.

Since you have a magneto ignition system there is a wire from the engine to the safety switches and key switch (usually Black) that shorts out the mag. Locate this wire and disconnect it for test purposes. 

10 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

set of mini jumper cables from doing home electrical work.

Anything that is capable of carrying 50 amps of electrical current and keep you from burning your hand will be fine.

[jellyghost 378]

Here is what I learned.

I disconnected the black wire from the magneto ignition.  This appeared to go to the PTO shutoff, and I am pretty sure it is the correct wire that disconnects all of the safety switches.  The tractor still would not start, so I reconnected the black wire.

I connected the two large terminals on the solenoid.  Small sparks were created and the starter turned!

My mini jumper cables were way too small for the current.  

 

Does this mean the solenoid is bad?  If so, can you point me in the direction of repair or replacement?  Does anything cause solenoids to go bad?

[jellyghost 378]

One more thing.  I have been looking at pictures of tractor solenoids, and I understand how pliers could span the two terminals.  By comparison, this solenoid is a beast.  A pair of channel locks at max spread might be able to touch both while angling from the side.

 

[slammer302 2,155]

You may want to check if you have power to the small positive wire going to the solenoid when the key is turned to the cranking position if thier is power thier and engine still doesn't start the solenoid may be bad or the starter is dragging so bad that the battery can't turn it. You can buy solenoids at O'Reillys auto part stores.

[953 nut 55,184]

4 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

Does this mean the solenoid is bad?

No, could be a safety switch or the ignition switch or a bad connection, but it proves the starter, battery and connecting cables are good. Take your small jumper wire and connect one end to the battery "+" and touch the other end to the small terminal of the solenoid that goes to the ignition switch. If the solenoid is good it will close and crank the engine.

6 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

tractor still would not start, so I reconnected the black wire.

You cranked the engine over with the black wire disconnected and it didn't start. Pull the spark plug and let it lay on the head with high tension lead connected; remove the black wire again and jump the solenoid and watch for spark at the plug. We will continue to see what works.

 

4 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

solenoid is a beast

That is probably a Ford automotive unit, that is fine.

[jellyghost 378]

1 hour ago, slammer302 said:

You may want to check if you have power to the small positive wire going to the solenoid when the key is turned to the cranking position if thier is power thier and engine still doesn't start the solenoid may be bad or the starter is dragging so bad that the battery can't turn it. You can buy solenoids at O'Reillys auto part stores.

Thank you for this.  If I need a new solenoid, I wonder if it will mount in the old solenoid space, and how do I ask for it in O'Reillys.  Can I use a home repair current tester (it looks like a yellow pen and turns red if it senses current) to see if the small positive wire is providing power to the solenoid?  If it is not providing power, I assume that I need a new ignition.

 

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

No, could be a safety switch or the ignition switch or a bad connection, but it proves the starter, battery and connecting cables are good. Take your small jumper wire and connect one end to the battery "+" and touch the other end to the small terminal of the solenoid that goes to the ignition switch. If the solenoid is good it will close and crank the engine.

 

After reading about solenoids, this test makes sense to me.  I will try it tomorrow.

 

Quote

You cranked the engine over with the black wire disconnected and it didn't start. Pull the spark plug and let it lay on the head with high tension lead connected; remove the black wire again and jump the solenoid and watch for spark at the plug. We will continue to see what works.

 

I don't think we are talking about the same thing.  Before jumping the solenoid, I tried disconnecting the black wire and using the ignition key.  That did not work.  

I reconnected the black wire before jumping the solenoid.  When I jumped the solenoid, the starter engine came to life, but the main engine did not.  I think that is because I was using such a small jumper cable, and I needed to get it off before it melted.  If I had a better jumper, I could probably have started the engine.  This is the first time the starter has cranked since the sudden death.

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by jellyghost

[ohiofarmer 3,265]

Does the small wire going to the solenoid come from under the linkage to the brake pedal?  My brake / clutch pedal was out of adjustment and therefore the wire did not energize when the pedal was depressed. That is the only safety switch on my old 1973 Raider 10. If your machine is so equipped, check out the wire and the little ball switch under the place where the clutch pedal linkage contacts the frame of the tractor. Mine was hard to find under all that grease. You could also run that [small solenoid ] wire to its source and jump it around the ball switch to test it.

[953 nut 55,184]

6 hours ago, ohiofarmer said:

wire going to the solenoid come from under the linkage to the brake pedal?

That is one of the safety switches in the starter system. I know you were attempting to be helpful, but please don't interject your problems while we are troubleshooting the symptoms jellyghost is having, it just confuses the issue and by his own admission he is a bit of a novice. We are doing a systematic check of components to see what works. The switch you are referring to will not cause the engine to suddenly die like his did. We don't need to have him chasing every rabbit hole!

[953 nut 55,184]

7 hours ago, jellyghost said:

Can I use a home repair current tester (it looks like a yellow pen and turns red if it senses current)

Unfortunately, no. The tester you have is for AC and the battery is DC. I doubt that you will need a solenoid, but if you do they can be bought at any auto parts store or Tractor Supply etc. My hunch is that the PTO switch is bad, but we need to find out what works before we run out and spend money replacing perfectly good components. 

 

7 hours ago, jellyghost said:

reconnected the black wire before jumping the solenoid.

Need to leave this off for now, once the engine is running you can reconnect it to stop the engine.