416-H/ARK Loader Fitment Issue

[rmaynard 15,427]

I knew when I bought this loader at the WHCC show that I might have an issue. Today was the first time since I acquired it that I had the time and good weather to start working on it.

 

Here is the issue. The tractor is a 1996 416-H. The loader turns out to be a 1971 ARK 508-QM with self-contained pump. The hood on the 416 is wider (16") than the 1971 through 1979 models (12-1/2"), plus the side mounted muffler on the Onan conflicts even more.

 

 

The closeup is a little out of perspective, but you get the gist of what my problem is.

 

 

So, short of removing the right side upright from the loader and seeing if it will fit without conflicting with the muffler and the "Matt Foot Controls", I am stuck figuring how to install it, and if it will even fit. If I had a hoist, I guess I could lower it onto the tractor so the pump is past the muffler.

 

Has anyone here done this on their 300/400/520 series horse?

 

 

[dclarke 4,032]

Bob, is there any way you can take the pump off? Would that give you enough clearance?

[rmaynard 15,427]

The pump can be removed, but the welded on bracket would remain. I would only gain about 1", the thickness of the pulley.

[AMC RULES 37,127]

Would removing the hood do any good Bob? 

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

Can you block the FEL frame further towards the front and remove the factory support legs until you wiggle the tractor into position? 

[rmaynard 15,427]

6 minutes ago, AMC RULES said:

Would removing the hood do any good Bob? 

The muffler and guard would still stick out.

I'm considering cutting the pump bracket off completely, fashioning a plate that can be bolted back on to the upright after the loader is installed.

or

Maybe I will just install it on my B-100 show queen... ...nah

[wallfish 16,982]

How about supporting more forward under the base of the lift rams, Run the pump with a deck belt off your tractor and extend the rams so the uprights may now be over the muffler. Drive forward. The rams should slowly retract from the weight of the uprights without the pump running when you pull the valve.

 

Personally, I would just cut off that bracket at the horizontal square leaving enough to re-attach it with some steel and bolts or if you can't use it, it can just be welded back together.

[rmaynard 15,427]

I'm thinking about cutting it off here at the weld with a sawzall.

 

Then take this spare tire bracket and cut the angled steel off and have someone weld the pump bracket on. This way I can position the pump wherever it needs to be to avoid conflicting with other stuff.

Just a thought.

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by rmaynard

[ACman 7,618]

My  , use 4" angel grinder with new wheel . Then chisel and hammer . It's just from past experience . I just foresee to much  when blades start bending and catching . 

[rmaynard 15,427]

You are right on ACman. The more I thought about it, the more the angle grinder looked like the best cutting method. Just need to get some new cutoff wheels. 

[rmaynard 15,427]

Just got a five-pack of blades. Now let's see what kind of havoc I can wreak. 

[wrightorchid 261]

wear a shield, I've seen too many cutting wheels break.  Good luck.  Might be simpler to add it to a smaller tractor, although the 416 is great.

 

[rmaynard 15,427]

You know the old saying, "The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry" well here is a classic case.

Okay. Wore eye protection, and cut the pump off.

 

 

And with that done, the loader went on with no room to spare.

 

 

However, the pump cannot be mounted to the upright again without conflict with the foot pedal, muffler, or PTO shaft.

 

Looks like I am back to square one and will have to find somewhere else to mount the pump.

[buckrancher 2,679]

Bob the ark loader I had. The pump was mounted to the engine by a bracket off the front bolt circle holes around the crankshaft the engine was K341

 

brian

Edited August 31, 2016 by buckrancher

[WHX?? 48,761]

The loader is going to stay on this tractor I take it? How about mounting the pump off the back somehow and running it with mid idlers ala tiller style?? 

[rmaynard 15,427]

47 minutes ago, WHX7 said:

The loader is going to stay on this tractor I take it? How about mounting the pump off the back somehow and running it with mid idlers ala tiller style?? 

Too much plumbing, no place to put a mid-idler due to the undercarriage of the loader.

 

56 minutes ago, buckrancher said:

Bob the ark loader I had. The pump was mounted to the engine by a bracket off the front bolt circle holes around the crankshaft the engine was K341

I've got nowhere on the engine to mount a bracket, but I'm thinking about making a bracket that attaches to the frame in front of the engine on the same bolts as the front loader support. Then I will only have to have one longer hose made up.

[ACman 7,618]

That's what we call farming engineering  ! Sounds like you you have a plan .

 

Keep us posted , will be waiting for more pics  .

[rmaynard 15,427]

Rube Goldberg in my case. 

[WNYPCRepair 1,914]

How about building a mount for the front tachomatic?

 

[WHX?? 48,761]

1 hour ago, WNYPCRepair said:

a mount for the front tachomatic?

i was looking at that too Repair but it looked busy up there too the way those struts angle down?? Underneath the tractor with a mule drive?

 

Nope nevermind looks busy there as well .. bracket below the dipstick tube is your only option the way it looks.

Edited August 31, 2016 by WHX7
add

[MalMac 1,331]

If I remember right I think the Kwik-Ways had the pump mounted to the sub-frame down by the footboard. What your doing there mounting to the tractor frame I think is on the right track. Maybe one of the Kwik-Way guys will chime in here. I have a Ark 550 mounted on a 414-8 is I am not much good on a location for you.

[rmaynard 15,427]

1 hour ago, WNYPCRepair said:

How about building a mount for the front tachomatic?

 

Front tach-o-matic is hidden by the front mounting bracket. Plus the tach-o-matic had to be partially disassembled to put the front mounting bracket on. Tach-o-matic was not on the 1971 models when this unit was built.

37 minutes ago, WHX7 said:

i was looking at that too Repair but it looked busy up there too the way those struts angle down?? Underneath the tractor with a mule drive?

 

Nope nevermind looks busy there as well .. bracket below the dipstick tube is your only option the way it looks.

Mule drive is unavailable since the front tach-o-matic is covered.

[rmaynard 15,427]

So, here is my conclusion. After spending the entire day trying to figure something out, I have concluded that it won't happen.

First of all, as constructed, the pump and pulley interferes with the muffler, motion control pedal, and PTO lever.

I removed the pump, cut the mounting bracket off, and tried various different mounting scenarios. None work. If mounted in front of the engine, the pump either conflicts with the muffler, angled support strut, hood or right front tire.

And to top it all off, the hood only opens about half way. The bottom, near the hinge, hits the front mounting bracket.

 

For all of you who will have ideas of fabricating this or building that, keep in mind that I am NOT a fabricator. Lord knows I'd love to have one tenth the skills of Wallfish or Buckrancher. I don't weld, and with my recent spinal fusion, I don't bend well myself either. If it can't be built with angle iron and nuts and bolts, it ain't gonna be built.

 

Looks like rain tonight and tomorrow, so sometime over the weekend the loader is coming back off.

 

Back to the drawing board.

[ACman 7,618]

I do understand where you're coming from , but can I make one more suggestion . Anyway to build a jack shaft to mount pump on other side . Could use go kart/min bike parts off eBay . Just a thought , I hate seeing people giving up . 

[wallfish 16,982]

First off --my skills are absolutely no where near the same league as buckrancher is in and very surprised those names are in the same sentence!

 

It's gotta be able to fit in there some where, I have two pumps mounted on a 416 but yours is a little different.

Can you take some more pics of that area in front of the engine but backed out out a little bit so we can see the entire area?

Wondering about some modification to the support arm to make a little room. Can that pump can be used bi-directional? (if it has any IN and OUT or flow direction indicators it can't)  The new type can but not to sure about that one.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by wallfish