K91 recoil ?

[ACman 7,621]

This is my K91T ,and it looks like it had a recoil on it at some point . My ? Is is there a recoil that fits this cup , or should I just use a techy cup and coil ? 

 

 

[woodchuckfarmer 333]

That looks like a rope start to me

[AMC RULES 37,134]

Remove that rope start to bolt up a cup in it's place. 

[ACman 7,621]

I'm asking because if you look at @jsp_333 's thread (RJ got a new look ) . If you look behind his recoil it looks like it could be the same cup . My other rope start is cast aluminum . Here's a pic

[857 horse 2,581]

2 hours ago, ACman said:

This is my K91T ,and it looks like it had a recoil on it at some point . My ? Is is there a recoil that fits this cup , or should I just use a techy cup and coil ? 

 

 

I have this Blue 91 engine in my shed....bought it at the Big Show last year....looks like it was never hooked up or ran......rebuilt the carb....runs like a million $$$$$$$  or Samolions,,,,,getters....clams.....big ones...... you know what i mean....

[ACman 7,621]

Got this one off CL for $99.00 . He put it in his basement in the seventies , started on the third pull .

[Lane Ranger 10,992]

I just put a Tecumseh recoil and cup on my RJ restore Jeff.    There are several different recoil cups and recoil starters that will work on the RJ with a Kohler motor.   The key issue is the cup has to match the starter.   The  cup on yours in the first photo is a cup designed just for a rope pull setup.    The  Kohlers on the RJ's had Schnacke recoils, Fairbanks Morse,   Kohler  and Tecumseh type recoils from all that I have seen.  

Edited May 8, 2016 by Lane Ranger

[Terry M-(Moderator) 2,176]

7 hours ago, Lane Ranger said:

I just put a Tecumseh recoil and cup on my RJ restore Jeff.

Lane, your saying the recoil with the cup from my 6HP tecumseh's will work on the k91 kohlers?   I have seen the recoils bolted on,like yours, onto the k91's.....but was never sure what cup was used between the two.    

 

[Lane Ranger 10,992]

Terry:  Here is a picture of the cup that the Tecumseh  recoil uses  that fits in a  K91 motor.

[Racinbob 11,237]

That's exactly what I have planned for that Tecky recoil I PM'ed you about Terry. The one on my Suburban is all messed up.

[AMC RULES 37,134]

Be advised, you'll need the short tecky cup...

for a Tecumseh recoil to bolt up to your Kohlers tins.

Multiple recoil assemblies will work on a K-90/91, and each lends their own unique looks to the engine too.

Schnacke, Fairbanks Morse, Tecumseh, and of course Kohler...all use different cups, because each has a different arrangement of pawls that engage said cups.

For example...a K-90 with the Tecumseh recoil...

...K-90 with the Fairbanks recoil...

...K-90 with the Schnacke recoil.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by AMC RULES

[Racinbob 11,237]

That's good to know Craig, I wasn't aware of that.

[wallfish 17,084]

The stamped steel style recoils were also factory to Kohler

Here's one on a K91

[AMC RULES 37,134]

1 hour ago, wallfish said:

The stamped steel style recoils were also factory to Kohler

 

So...you're saying John, these recoils aren't proprietary to either Tecumseh, or Kohler?

Anyone knows who makes 'em?    

[wallfish 17,084]

 

1 hour ago, AMC RULES said:

So...you're saying John, these recoils aren't proprietary to either Tecumseh, or Kohler?

Anyone knows who makes 'em?    

I think they are different but not 100% sure since I don't have any Tecumseh recoils. If memory serves me, the circle in the center is smaller on the Tecumseh recoils and the mechanism might work different.

Couldn't find any markings on the Kohler recoils. I have 3 of those but the plastic part which holds the pawls are broken.

[Terry M-(Moderator) 2,176]

6 hours ago, Lane Ranger said:

Terry:  Here is a picture of the cup that the Tecumseh  recoil uses  that fits in a  K91 motor.

Lane, could you take a depth/highth and width measurement of the cup you have pictured. I can take one of my recoil cups and see how it fits on a k91 crank shaft.  

it's worth a try to try and figure this out.

[Terry M-(Moderator) 2,176]

I did a quick measurement of the tecumseh recoil cup hole and outboard end diameter of an HH60 crankshaft and a k91 crankshaft.    Cup hole measured about .51" and the tecumseh crankshaft came out at .50" .  the K91 crankshaft measurement came in at .44" diameter.   so the k90/91 cranks are slightly smaller in the diameter where it would fit into the hole on the cup....But not by much.    other factors to check out would be a small hole in the flywheel for the notch of the cup to fit into... 

[sorekiwi 761]

53 minutes ago, Terry M said:

I did a quick measurement of the tecumseh recoil cup hole and outboard end diameter of an HH60 crankshaft and a k91 crankshaft.    Cup hole measured about .51" and the tecumseh crankshaft came out at .50" .  the K91 crankshaft measurement came in at .44" diameter.   so the k90/91 cranks are slightly smaller in the diameter where it would fit into the hole on the cup....But not by much.    other factors to check out would be a small hole in the flywheel for the notch of the cup to fit into... 

 

Many years ago I owned an RJ with a Tecumseh recoil on its K90.

 

The cup that was on it when it came to me was way too short, and one of the previous owners had compensated for this with a stack of washers between the flywheel and the cup.  In turn, this meant that the nut clamping this whole mess together was only engaged by about 3 threads.

 

I never did manage to locate the correct starter cup.  I finally took a deep tecumseh cup and shortened it.  The cup was hard, a high speed steel parting tool in the lathe wouldnt touch it, I had to cut it with an abrasive cut off wheel.  And I do remember that I had to mess around with centering the cup due to the hole size difference that Terry just referenced.

[squonk 41,392]

If you use Tecky recoil parts, make sure you get new ones! 

[Lane Ranger 10,992]

If you think you are getting confused about these recoils  -just wait more confusion to come.

 

I took a couple of more pictures of the three RJ's recoil setups I have on my three RJ.s   Like Craig's photos I also have a Schnancke recoil (that was used a  some of the early RJ's with Kohler motors) and mine has the  hex type nut that goes on the shaft which the recoil "grabs" the nut to turn the crankshaft.   My Schancke is being worked on by Joe Papke.   I also have recoil that was purchased as new old stock as a 4 HP  Kohler recoil that has a very different face on it from the recoil I am using that is a  Tecumseh/Kohler  (stamped metal one as Wallfish notes) .  The cups  to me a the key to if a certain kind of recoil will work  (as Sorekiwi points out the cup  has to get contact with the recoil prawls or dogs as I call them).   My recoil -that I bought as a Tecumseh has three dogs or teeth to grab the side of the cup.   The cup on my K 90  (yes I checked and my  4 HP Kohler and it is the K 90 version - NOT a K91 - that had a Schnacke recoil on it when I purchased it)   has a tab  bent back on the cup  to  recess into the flywheel of the K90.  The smooth cup does have a some protrusions on the side to assist with grabbing some of the recoil teeth.  

 

Terry, the depth of the cup I am using is about 31 mm or about 1 and 1/4 inch.   The width of the cup internally is about  65 mm or 2 1/2 inches.  Externally the cup  with -with the lip on it is about 73 mm or 2 7/8 inches wide.  The hole for the crank shaft that the nut goes on is on the cup is about 1/2 inch.

 

The Kohler type cup  (which I have a couple new old stock versions of in original boxes)  is   Kohler Part # 220936.  That cup has teeth on it and  a screen surrounding the cup attached to the back of the cup.   It does not have a tab to "hold" the cup on the flywheel like the Tecumseh cup I am using.   The cup is  3 3/8 inches wide externally and about 2 1/2 internally.  And is  about 30 mm deep -very similar to the smooth Tecumseh cup.   So I do think that  either of these cups would work with the recoil I have but the external screen on the Tecumseh recoil would have to be removed as the Kohler cup  already has one.  However, only my RJ with the Kohler Recoil has the Kohler cup.on it. 

 

Here are some pictures.

 

First three photos are of my RK motors with first two having the same Tecumseh type recoil and cups.   Third photo is RJ  with Kohler type recoil and cup.

 

Fourth photo has the center piece that John (Wallfish)  referenced in his comments above.  This is on the Tecumseh and Kohler type recoil John  posted photo of above.

 

Fifth and Sixth photos are of a Kohler cup used on several different sized motors.

 

 

Seventh photo is of the inside of the Tecumseh recoil I am using on my RJ restore with the three dogs or prawls extended.   Many of these recoil starters have just one dog or prawl -thsi one has three.

 

Eighth, Ninth and Tenth photos are metric measurements of the Tecumseh smooth recoil cup.

 

Eleventh photo is measurement taken of the Kohler cup with teeth on the inside.   The depth of teh Kohler cup is also about 30 mm  so similar to the Tecumseh newer recoil cup.

 

 

If you are not confused yet then I have not done a complete job of explaining these!

 

 

 

[jsp_333 268]

Photo of k90 as I bought it and a photo of set up that is currently on the rj minus the recoil as referred to above

Can't seem to find a better photo of green engine.

So is the original (red) engine set up for rope start and probably never had recoil start?

Also the pull cord on the schnake recoil I do have isn't rope but what I know has airline cable.

What is the pull start supposed to be?

[AMC RULES 37,134]

Many of the earlier K-90's you'll find originally had rope starters...    

might've been the norm before recoil starters came along, or just utilized for different applications other than tractors. 

I've got an NOS Fairbanks Morse unit in it's original pkg...

that is marketed as being a direct replacement for the rope starters..."throw your rope away"

Edited May 9, 2016 by AMC RULES

[ACman 7,621]

Ok , I just downloaded a K90 manual and it tells you how to add the Schnake recoil by removing the nut on the rope pull and replacing it with their nut part#220169 , then placing the recoil over the rope pull and install on the shroud . So from what I just read that is the same rope pull under the Schnake recoil . Also downloaded the K91/K141/K161/K181/K241/K301/K321/K341 manual it shows it shows the Fairbanks and a kohler recoil . What I didn't see was a rope pull that looks like the one on my RJ58 ,which looks like it has to be put on after the shroud , as it covers the mounting holes for a recoil .   Wonder if it's for a larger engine . More investigation required   . Anyone seen a rope pull like this on a K90/91 . I'll try to find a older manual for a K91 as the one I have is from the early 90's . How can I tell the difference between a K90/91 this engine is missing the I.d. plate . May look like goveners are different .  

[Terry M-(Moderator) 2,176]

On May 8, 2016 at 0:33 PM, AMC RULES said:

Schnacke, Fairbanks Morse, Tecumseh, and of course Kohler...all use different cups, because each has a different arrangement of pawls that engage said cups.

Craig, do you have a pic of the "Kohler" recoil ?  The only ones I've seen are the three you have pictured.

[Lane Ranger 10,992]

Here is a sheet on Schanacke Recoil parts for Clinton Motors but also applies to use on Kohlers.