First gen 6 speed--differential "ratcheting"

[Docwheelhorse 2,682]

Hello all,

I was pleased to find a first gen 6 speed stuck in a C85 parts tractor.... I could use this in my late 60's (1057???) as the gearbox in that one is rusted solid...

The trans I found shifts and rolls over very nice... no water in it... ---BUT--- if I grab one hub and spin the other I get a heck of a click click click (ratcheting) feel in the differential. Is this one of the 10 pinion differentials and just does that ??? I seem to remember from several years back about these 10 pinion differentials and breaking issues if worked too hard and that they did tend to ratchet....

 

Other issue----the hubs have been welded to the axles... I don't think in a fatal way---there is a nice bead that's not too deep and with some work could be ground away to get the hubs off. But I don't want to get into the case if I don't have too...

 

Thoughts??

 

Tony

[WHX?? 49,196]

if its a 5060 I would say yes you could. There is a good repair manual here for the 5060 and I"m sure @stevasauruswill be along to shed some more light on the racheting issue.

[stevasaurus 22,883]

Tony, does your transmission look like this?  ie...it has the 1" extension on the oil fill plug...the brake shaft comes out the hole next to the axle housing...and it has the hi/low shifter.

 

If so...it is either a #5060 or a #5073 transmission.  These are both 10 pinion, limited slip differentials, and I think the "ratcheting" you refer to would be normal for what you did.  I am assuming that you realize this trans would not be found in a C-85 from the factory.    If your transmission looks like the one in the picture, it should bolt right on to your 1057...providing your 1057 is not one of those different bolt patterns.  The brake drum and linkage should be the same.  May have to cut some sheet metal for the hi/low shifter.

    The transmission in your 1057, though rusted, is probably fixable.  That transmission should be a #5058...a 3 speed uni-drive with the bevel gear differential.  The differential is very like shot.  I think racinfool40 (Mike) has the parts to replace those. 

[Docwheelhorse 2,682]

Hi, thanks Stevasaurus... yes my trans-axle looks like that... Yes I know its not a factory C85 piece---somebody "jammed" it into the C85 and put a clutch return spring on the pedal and wound the brake band around and bent it.... I guess it worked for what they needed.

 

The late 60's tractor I refer too has a six speed in it that's rusted SOLID.... I must have gotten the model number wrong in guessing a 1057. Tractor is a 1967--1970 vintage and says SIX SPEED in black letters on the dash tower... I'll take a pic... it has a Kohler 10 in it from factory...

 

Thanks

[WHX?? 49,196]

Might be a a T1067 Tony, they had a 5060 six forward two reverse, 10 hp, 6 speed '67.  Just below the dash should be a plate.

[squonk 41,470]

My 1267 has that ratchet feel when spinning one hub. Has the 5060 trans. It will also dig to China if I let it! 

[stevasaurus 22,883]

Tony...a couple of pics should be worth it's weight in gold.  Try to take a couple of pics showing both sides of the trans.  The hi/low shifter, the brake shaft, the fill plug and what it looks like.  If you have a six speed in there and you have one to replace, it should be a no brainier....should bolt right in and then you can open the old one.    I think we need to determine what horse you have there.  That would help for sure. 

[Docwheelhorse 2,682]

HI, I know this trans will fit and work... my question was about the ratcheting differential and it sounds like that maybe normal.

 

I'll take pics and post them

 

Thanks

Tony

[sorekiwi 761]

I wouldnt worry too much about the ratcheting feeling Tony.  The 10 pinion differential isnt a great design, and 50 years on they dont work that great.

 

This is a picture of the spring ring that is jammed between the pinions to produce the limited slip effect.  You can see the deep grooves worn in it.  What you are feeling is the pinions falling into the grooves, and then tearing themselves out of the groove until the next tooth falls in.

 

 

In the real world, this system actually still continues to work somewhat.  The diff in my 1267 still locks up and will spin both wheels, but it feels terrible when you jack the tractor up and "feel" it.  When this ring gets worn enough the limited slip function suffers, but the differential keeps working, ableit more like an "open" diff, ala 4 or 8 pinion.

 

I would just go with what you have.

 

 

[Docwheelhorse 2,682]

Thanks Sorekiwi... now I understand what the holy hennah is going on inside there!!! Never knew about these spring rings...

 

Tony

[sorekiwi 761]

21 minutes ago, Docwheelhorse said:

Thanks Sorekiwi... now I understand what the holy hennah is going on inside there!!! Never knew about these spring rings...

 

Tony

BTW that ring is NLA from Toro.l  Someone made one a while back, and posted a thread about it, I cant remember who.

 

For such a simple part it would require some clever decisions on material and heat treat.  Someone much smarter than me!!  Worst case scenario, the diff stops locking up and starts working like the "normal" Wheelhorse diffs.

[WHX?? 49,196]

This might give you a better picture of whats going on in there Tony, these are out of the service manual.

[Docwheelhorse 2,682]

Hello All,

here is a pic of the tractor with the shot 6 speed... I always assumed it was a 10 hp... theres no labels left on engine and the belt guard is missing so no model number./ The aluminum tag is there but I didn't put too much effort into reading the numbers as I was headed to work. I'll try and get those off when I get a chance. In the meantime does anybody know what it is? It would be cool if it was a 12 hp 1967

 

Tony

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,883]

Check the gallery on the main page Tony.  For sure it is either a 1067 or a 1267 depending on the engine.  I'm pretty sure that the only way to tell what you have, with no engine numbers, is to pull off the head and take some measurements. 

[WHX?? 49,196]

'67 fer sure says the alternator belt guard, check the engine plate if it's still there - 10hp = K241, 12hp would have a K301. Either way both would have the 5060 tranny. There will be no numbers on the drive belt guard but there should have been 1267/1067  hood decals. Looks like that girl is dying to brought back to life....let me know when you want me to come get it.... A member here has a 1067 that is imaculately resto'ed & squonk has a 1267 that ain't too shabby.  Nice thing about these year models is some Commando & Raider parts are interchangable all the way up into the seventies. Like Steve said don't throw the rusted tranny on the scrap heap as it is savable but he may have to eat a handfull of nails and crap out a couple of 1533's!!!

Edited April 19, 2016 by WHX61/3

[Robert of Lake Michigan 13]

I put many hours to bring my 1267 into the living once again.  I call her ' Christine '.   Nobody gets between me and Christine.  wink.

My visual opinion on the Kohler engine is that it is a 12 hp.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Robert of Lake Michigan
addendum

[sorekiwi 761]

My 1267 is the favorite in my herd of about a dozen right now.  

 

She's old but shes still sexy, doesnt give me too much bull-poo, and will do anyjting I ask of her.