WNYPCRepair 1,921 #26 Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) 23 minutes ago, DennisThornton said: Holy cow Brian! Slow down! I said I'd have time to watch but geese! And you filled in those holes just fine for a newbie! I'd want confirmation but I'm thinking that 1/8" box tubing is pretty darned stout for what you are doing underneath. I still had 3/8" of steel left above the new holes, but thought I would play it safe. I was going to weld a piece over it, then I saw the brass (copper?) spoon I bought laying on the bench and thought I would give it a shot. It was surprisingly easy, but I could only do 1/2 at a time, it gets really hot with that much weld. And I have to remember that just because I have gloves on, it doesn't mean I can pick up hot metal. I didn't know leather would melt. The fingers of my gloves are shrinking and gnarly. I think so too. I might even drop the cross piece down to 2" x 2" x 1/8" to gain more space between the motion pedal and the cross piece. I might even fit under it with 2" and get the cross piece farther back to spread the weight. I may also put an X brace between the rails to reduce flex Edited March 7, 2016 by WNYPCRepair 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DennisThornton 4,769 #27 Posted March 7, 2016 43 minutes ago, WNYPCRepair said: I still had 3/8" of steel left above the new holes, but thought I would play it safe. I was going to weld a piece over it, then I saw the brass (copper?) spoon I bought laying on the bench and thought I would give it a shot. It was surprisingly easy, but I could only do 1/2 at a time, it gets really hot with that much weld. And I have to remember that just because I have gloves on, it doesn't mean I can pick up hot metal. I didn't know leather would melt. The fingers of my gloves are shrinking and gnarly. I think so too. I might even drop the cross piece down to 2" x 2" x 1/8" to gain more space between the motion pedal and the cross piece. I might even fit under it with 2" and get the cross piece farther back to spread the weight. I may also put an X brace between the rails to reduce flex I've been keeping my eye open for a big chunk of copper for a long time... Chuckle! Yep! Not sure you would want them but I still have some 100% asbestos gloves that will NOT melt! Now I'm afraid to touch them! Yeah, I think underneath you are OK with the 1/8". Above, guessing not. My TC-35 will lift almost a ton and those arms are beefy for sure! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #28 Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, DennisThornton said: I've been keeping my eye open for a big chunk of copper for a long time... Chuckle! Yep! Not sure you would want them but I still have some 100% asbestos gloves that will NOT melt! Now I'm afraid to touch them! Yeah, I think underneath you are OK with the 1/8". Above, guessing not. My TC-35 will lift almost a ton and those arms are beefy for sure! The pedestals are 3 x 5 x 3/16, maybe 1/4, I don't remember what he found and ordered. The boom arms are going to be 2 x 3 x 3/16, I think Edited March 7, 2016 by WNYPCRepair Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DennisThornton 4,769 #29 Posted March 7, 2016 1 minute ago, WNYPCRepair said: The pedestals are 3 x 5 x 3/16, maybe 1/4, I don't remember what he found and ordered. The boom arms are going to be 2 x 3 x 3/16, I think That's pretty beefy. Now don't get in big rush here. You are under some pressure to produce the best not the fastest. The ground is frozen and you have little use for a FEL right now. You can finesses this to be the best, at least in some category, before you actually need it! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #30 Posted March 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, DennisThornton said: That's pretty beefy. Now don't get in big rush here. You are under some pressure to produce the best not the fastest. The ground is frozen and you have little use for a FEL right now. You can finesses this to be the best, at least in some category, before you actually need it! I definitely intend to do my best to do it right. Hopefully, my welding is up to the task. The hydraulics, I will definitely need help with, beyond the basic principles, I don't know much about it. My mind works in weird ways. I get something in my head like this, and I can't get it out. I had a chance to buy a tractor and loader, and it was a fair price, but I am afraid I would still have this stuck in my head. I've barely slept in two weeks, I've been building this thing in my head, over and over. I used to own a remodeling business. I had to convert a back porch with a 3 foot high block foundation into an expansion of the kitchen. The lady wanted the back door, with transom to be at exactly the same height as the windows across the back wall. I had to work from the top down to figure exactly where to cut the foundation. I was doing it all night in my head, terrified I would be off by 1/2" and it would stand out like a sore thumb. The next day, I had the measurements down so well, that I was exact, including 1/4" for shimming plumb. I was exhausted, but I had plenty of practice runs. I'm strange, but mostly harmless. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #31 Posted March 7, 2016 @Snowmobileaddict You mounted your front braces where the whit box is. I took the bumper cover off and found these two bolts where the red box is. I remember you were hoping to keep your bumper cover on and then found that it had to come off. I am thinking of using the two bolts where the red box is. They seem as strong as the three bolts where the Attach-A-Matic is. Thoughts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowmobileaddict 403 #32 Posted March 7, 2016 If I had fabbed my subframe cross bar (where the uprights attach to) just 1/2" or so further forward from where I did, the plastic bumper cover wouldn't have had to be removed. The boom cross bar on my loader interferes with it. The hoses and pump carrier have plenty of room even with the red bumper cover mounted. The spot you have called out above would likely work out it its beefy enough up there. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc724 925 #33 Posted March 7, 2016 17 hours ago, DennisThornton said: Holy cow Brian! Slow down! I said I'd have time to watch but geese! And you filled in those holes just fine for a newbie! I'd want confirmation but I'm thinking that 1/8" box tubing is pretty darned stout for what you are doing underneath. I am inclined to agree with Dennis. However, you can run the calculations. The important number is the Moment of Inertia aka I, (the letter I) See attached URL http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/section_square_case_10.htm Stress at the outer extremities; stress=(M x c)/I where M=the bending load, c=distance to the outer fibers of the material from the point of support (or in the case of the front-back supports the distance from the center of the section to the outer fibers) and I=Moment of inertia. The take away is that you want I to be big. As I gets bigger, stress goes down. (think of the floor joists in your house, they stand on edge which makes for a big I). Even with 1/8 wall, I don't think you are anyway near the yield point of the steel and at the worst, your factor of safety may have decreased a bit. Also, the loads are not huge: 350-500 pounds with a loaded bucket plus the weight of the loader itself. If you think about it, the weakest points of the whole design is the attachment to the mid tach-a-matic and the two bolts (each side) which hold the subframe at the rear. Keep up the good work 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #34 Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) Working on the pedestal mount today. I'm afraid to go further until I get the steel for the pedestals, so I have exact measurements. I did end up using the 2 x 2 x 1/8 for the cross piece, if I need to beef it up, I'll slide a piece of angle iron inside and weld it at the ends to stiffen it up, but I don't think I need it. I was correct, with 2" square, I can get the base farther back and it clears the motion pedal easily. I can't get 2" x 4" tube for the uprights, so I cut two lengths of 2 x 2 the correct height, welded them together, then welded a gusset over the entire end. I think it will hold. 2 hours ago, Snowmobileaddict said: If I had fabbed my subframe cross bar (where the uprights attach to) just 1/2" or so further forward from where I did, the plastic bumper cover wouldn't have had to be removed. The boom cross bar on my loader interferes with it. The hoses and pump carrier have plenty of room even with the red bumper cover mounted. The spot you have called out above would likely work out it its beefy enough up there. Since I am building my own boom arms, I will bear that in mind, and I can adjust as necessary. I think I am going to use the new spot to mount the braces, it will be a lot easier to fabricate. 1 hour ago, doc724 said: I am inclined to agree with Dennis. However, you can run the calculations. The important number is the Moment of Inertia aka I, (the letter I) See attached URL http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/section_square_case_10.htm Stress at the outer extremities; stress=(M x c)/I where M=the bending load, c=distance to the outer fibers of the material from the point of support (or in the case of the front-back supports the distance from the center of the section to the outer fibers) and I=Moment of inertia. The take away is that you want I to be big. As I gets bigger, stress goes down. (think of the floor joists in your house, they stand on edge which makes for a big I). Even with 1/8 wall, I don't think you are anyway near the yield point of the steel and at the worst, your factor of safety may have decreased a bit. Also, the loads are not huge: 350-500 pounds with a loaded bucket plus the weight of the loader itself. If you think about it, the weakest points of the whole design is the attachment to the mid tach-a-matic and the two bolts (each side) which hold the subframe at the rear. Keep up the good work Not with my math skills, I can't. I almost failed Algebra, when I see formulas, my eyes glaze over and my brain shuts down. But I agree, the mid and rear mounts are the weak points, and nothing I do is going to change that Edited March 7, 2016 by WNYPCRepair 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowmobileaddict 403 #35 Posted March 7, 2016 Should definitely be an easier solution for the diagonal brace mounts. If I had known that was a useable anchor point when I was in the planning phase, I would have likely made use of those points as well. I didn't even know those points were there until after I had built my front mounts as copies of the original Kwik-Way design. And yes, those were a pain in the butt to model out of cardboard, and fabricate in the shop! Rest of the subframe (and other parts I had to build) was a walk in the park by comparison. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #36 Posted March 7, 2016 8 minutes ago, Snowmobileaddict said: Should definitely be an easier solution for the diagonal brace mounts. If I had known that was a useable anchor point when I was in the planning phase, I would have likely made use of those points as well. I didn't even know those points were there until after I had built my front mounts as copies of the original Kwik-Way design. And yes, those were a pain in the butt to model out of cardboard, and fabricate in the shop! Rest of the subframe (and other parts I had to build) was a walk in the park by comparison. And I would have to do it without the laser cut parts. I don't have that kind of skill. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc724 925 #37 Posted March 7, 2016 I would excerise caution moving the location of the diagonal braces. I think you want the attachment point as far forward on the tractor as possible. If you move it to the mid tach position, the angle of the brace to the uprights is going to be less. Those braces transfer the cantilever load of the bucket to the tractor frame. The weight of the tractor keeps the whole thing from tipping on its nose. If you move the location, you will have to add more weight at the back. The added weight at the back will keep the tractor from doing a nose dive, however, at some point the cantilever load could exceed the buckling strength of the braces and they will buckle and the towers will bend. If you are going to even consider this, those angle braces need to be beefier than the KW ones. I would opt to leaving the attachment point of the braces as close as possible to the original design and maybe look to redesign the "wings" to make them easier to fab. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #38 Posted March 7, 2016 1 hour ago, doc724 said: I would excerise caution moving the location of the diagonal braces. I think you want the attachment point as far forward on the tractor as possible. If you move it to the mid tach position, the angle of the brace to the uprights is going to be less. Those braces transfer the cantilever load of the bucket to the tractor frame. The weight of the tractor keeps the whole thing from tipping on its nose. If you move the location, you will have to add more weight at the back. The added weight at the back will keep the tractor from doing a nose dive, however, at some point the cantilever load could exceed the buckling strength of the braces and they will buckle and the towers will bend. If you are going to even consider this, those angle braces need to be beefier than the KW ones. I would opt to leaving the attachment point of the braces as close as possible to the original design and maybe look to redesign the "wings" to make them easier to fab. You misunderstand. I'm actually moving them farther forward, to the front bumper mount. Just slightly forward and above where Kwik-Way mounted them. The white box is where KW mounted them, and the red box is where I plan to. Those bolts are behind the front bumper cover, and appear to be as solid as the ones by the front Attach-A-Matic. Those bolts go into at least 3/16" steel that appears to be the same part of the frame that the front Attach-A-Matic mounts to. On a side note, I really wanted a nice thick piece of steel for the cross piece the pedestal mounts are attached to, but 2 1/2" was just too big, so I went with 2" and thought about welding angle iron underneath to stiffen it up. I just realized if I weld two pieces of 1 1/2" angle iron together like a box, it fits perfectly inside the 2" and should stiffen it up nicely. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc724 925 #39 Posted March 8, 2016 My apologies Brian, I did not study your pix carefully enough and I thought the white box was around the mid tach a matic. You are indeed correct the two bolts in the red box are just fine (and you have to remove the bumper cover anyway to get the pump tucked into place) so why not make it easy on yourself. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #40 Posted March 8, 2016 1 hour ago, doc724 said: My apologies Brian, I did not study your pix carefully enough and I thought the white box was around the mid tach a matic. You are indeed correct the two bolts in the red box are just fine (and you have to remove the bumper cover anyway to get the pump tucked into place) so why not make it easy on yourself. No need to apologize. If I'm doing something stupid, by all means let me know, LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wheelhorse -ady 65 #41 Posted March 8, 2016 ive just finished my loader 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #42 Posted March 8, 2016 Just got back from the steel store, time to get to work! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #43 Posted March 8, 2016 Well, one side of the mount is done, and the other is almost done. Now, I'm tired and hungry, time to get some food. Test fit Mount close up Left side with pedestal sitting on mount Both sides from rear I think these boom arms will be strong enough. Question. The left pedestal is the reservoir for fluid. Do I need to do any extensive cleaning of the inside of the tube, or is wiping it out with some MEK or mineral spirits enough? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowmobileaddict 403 #44 Posted March 9, 2016 That's some beefy uprights! You are cruisin' ahead on this. Well done. as for cleaning I'd just spray it down with some brake clean and wipe it good and clean. No burrs and no bits in there. Your filter will take care of the rest after a bit of run time. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DennisThornton 4,769 #45 Posted March 9, 2016 I'm getting all excited! Oh! Cleaning out the reservoir! I've always wondered about that and would love to hear more about it. My current thoughts are the filter will take care of any particulates and that there isn't much else to worry about. Hard to wipe out and little that would dissolve in solvents... I think I'd blow it out and go on. But, I could be wrong... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #46 Posted March 9, 2016 Yeah, it is hot rolled steel, so it has scale on it, and the only way to get it off is grind and sand, and it still isn't easy. And no way to grind inside the reservoir. They are big, but not that big. I'm debating making the top of the pedestals flat like the one that was just posted by @wheelhorse -ady. It just seems easier than trying to cut that angle on those huge uprights. Maybe I'll practice on the tops with the plasma cutter, since they are longer than I need. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wheelhorse -ady 65 #47 Posted March 9, 2016 my uprights are made of 80x80x5 box they also double as my tanks includin my subframe this is also part of the tank I can hold a fair bot of oil and have ability to run attachments via hydraulics my tops are flat as I have my levers mounted on left amdmy filler neck is on the right 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,921 #48 Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, wheelhorse -ady said: my uprights are made of 80x80x5 box they also double as my tanks includin my subframe this is also part of the tank I can hold a fair bot of oil and have ability to run attachments via hydraulics my tops are flat as I have my levers mounted on left amdmy filler neck is on the right Yeah I saw that. Do you mean 80cm x 80cm? They look much bigger than that. This is how Kwik-Way made them for Wheel Horse. They are 75 x 125 cm, and only one is the tank. I did think about cross connecting them and filling both, but no need really. Edited March 9, 2016 by WNYPCRepair Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wheelhorse -ady 65 #49 Posted March 9, 2016 I also have my feed and return in the middle underneath my tractor and also have 3/8 drain cap to allow me to drain the oil for service time 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowmobileaddict 403 #50 Posted March 9, 2016 I think he meant 80mm x 80mm x 5mm wall 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
