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ztnoo

GT 14 rear wheel hub

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ztnoo

Gentlemen,

Late last fall I was sweeping my lawn with a pull behind sweeper behind my GT 14. I had been running hard and fast for about a half hour and generally turning sharply to the left while maintaining high speed. Suddenly the rear wheels quit driving. I later found the hydro drive belt had come off the pulley powering the hydro. It has happened before. I'd much rather sacrifice a belt (or ten) if need be, to avoid a Sundstrand Hydrostatic tranny teardown and repair.

When I looked around a bit more, I discovered my left rear wheel hub had move inward about one inch on the axle. From what I can see it did not come on contact with the axle housing, but there is not much clearance remaining between the hub and the housing.

It was previously flush with the end of the axle, just like the right side hub still is.
I believe with my hard left turns while sweeping at full speed for an extended period, the hub and axle was pretty heated up and the force that was being applied was such the hub slid inward toward the axle housing.
Its not quite touching the housing, but the hub has moved inward about an inch.

So, I resolved I need to move this hub outward again and secure it in the proper relation to the axle with the two set screws on the inside of the hub before I test the tranny operation. It appears the woodruff keys in both hubs are still secure and in place. I don't believe any shearing of them has occurred. I believe my drive problem was all belt related. (fingers crossed)
The problems is, how do get the hub moved out???
This tractor is a 1969 model, and having had the axles replaced in the '80-'81 time frame, I know those hubs haven't been off for 35 years.
I know these can be really, really hard to remove.......or even moved enough to get it returned to its original orientation.
I've read some horror stories about getting wheel hubs like these off an axle.

The hub O.D. is 7". The lug spacing is in a 3.5" x 3.5" square pattern, and the axle diameter is 1 1/8". These are cast hubs and are very substantial and beefy, as I'm sure you other GT 14 owners know.
I have attempted using a two jaw puller, with PB penetrating oil, alternating with torch heat with absolutely no movement, for a couple of days.
Its my belief what pressure that puller was able to supply is too far away from the axle centerline for it to be effective. Also, I think just pulling from two points is not enough. I think whatever pressure which is applied to hopefully move the hub, needs to be applied at more points around the hub to get the job done. It seems like increasing the number of pulling points plus moving the location of the pulling points as close to the center of the axle, is the only reasonable solution to be able to move this hub.
How do I do that......huummm.

 

I have been a member of the Yahoo Wheel Horse Garden Tractors forum for quite a while and have inquired over there and received some suggestions. I also looked at this site prior to joining for advice about hub removal.

It seems like the best and most effective method suggested here is to use another hub just like you are dealing with, and convert it into a puller using the lug holes as the pulling points and the center of the hub with a nut and bolt as the push point.
Unbelievably and stupidly simplistic.....but apparently very effective and logical. A home brew puller can be fabricated duplicating the lug spacing and pattern, but another hub is the easiest and most straightforward way to go.
I read it still it requires lots of effort to move, but is generally the best way to get the job done, along with penetrating oil and cautious use of heat.

It appears to me this will be my best shot at moving this hub.

Any suggestions or advice about this method.....or any others that comes to mind to achieve what I want and need to do???
Anyone have a old GT 14 rear wheel hub collecting dust somewhere they would be willing to loan, rent, or sell for a reasonable price for use as a puller???

If you do, please contact me to discuss possibilities.


Enclosed are pics below of my hub situation and a suggested solution described and shown here at Red Square.
Any ideas will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Regards,

Steve

_________________

 

Flush hub, right rear
IMG_0421.JPG.d07def801881224eeaaa0e9b8fc

 

housing to axle spacing, right rear

IMG_0428.JPG.e6aab8a972c3a9620247d178202

 

inset hub, left rear

IMG_0425.JPG.486c30e693696aca98a6172f8d4

 

housing to axle spacing, left rear

IMG_0429.JPG.0cfa6fe41972e67e5489e7d1633

 

left hub and axle, wheel removed

IMG_0432.JPG.2fa20c3a5970d6bab572fc5967c

 

Example found here @ Red Square suggesting use of another like hub used as a puller

56b12d864da0e_whhub4.jpg.4d51791a5c024c9

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daveoman1966

As I offered in the Yahoo Group...but I don't know if you read it or not:  This is your pic and I edited it with some notes.

Release or remove the jam nut(s) #4 in this pic. Wrench the #1 bolt until it stops.  By 1/2 turn increments, wrench the bolt(s) #3 also tight, and UNIFORMLY to preclude cracking either hub.  After you progressively and UNIFORMLY tighten the perimeter (four or five) bolts #3, whack the center hub-puller bolt with a dead-blow hammer...with some violence apparent.  Repeat the process until the hub is broken loose. When it breaks loose, use the #1 bolt to slowly pull it off of the axle shaft.  

 

HUB PULLER 2.jpg

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ztnoo

Dave,

Yes I saw your Yahoo reply in my email. Thank you very much for your helpful suggestions both here and at Yahoo.

All I need to do now is locate a GT 14 rear hub.

Steve

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DennisThornton

The part of the axle sticking out looks like it might have been like that for some time.  That fact that it is resisting moving back indicates that as well.  Before you break the hub you might try ignoring it...

 

Or, keep spraying it with PB Blaster or the like, give it lots of time and come back with a HD puller, made or borrowed.  In the meantime it's not hurting anything if it's stuck there.

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can whlvr

if the hub drifted in then it probally wont be that hard to get out,heres a pic of homemade puller,works very good and cost me nothing but a couple of hours

004-10.jpg

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N3PUY

Lube it up good ... loosen the set screws .... drive it around the yard in the opposite direction.   Should want to slide off then.

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Aldon

Your hub has shown willingness to move so that's a positive. The one I am restoring, detailed in GT 14 Restomod thread, was rust welded and I broke 3 or 4 pullers. My resolution was similar to DaveOman's but with added muscle of a 10 or 12 ton hub hydraulic puller I got off amazon. Around 100 bucks if I recall.

 

Also, if you have a spare hub you can use it as shown previously.

 

Here are partial pics of my event which caused a 2 plus week delay in my restoration process, much aggregation and way more blood and sweat than one would think possible until you actually tear one of these old beasts apart.

image.thumb.jpeg.acfa5fd84796e1bb89d3841image.thumb.jpeg.3ac9c17b7bed212c60854deimage.thumb.jpeg.c36e609968a5a3ebc71cf4c

45 minutes ago, ztnoo said:

Dave,

Yes I saw your Yahoo reply in my email. Thank you very much for your helpful suggestions both here and at Yahoo.

All I need to do now is locate a GT 14 rear hub.

Steve

 

I have one I would send you but it's buried in winter storage. If your still in need this spring remind me and I will send you one.

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ztnoo

Aldon,

Yikes that is one really super serious combination you came up with there to solve your dilemma! Was it just one hub that gave you problems, or both?

I sure hope I don't get in to anything like that!

I'm hoping for the best, but it will be what it is going to be, so I'm going to have to deal with it one way or another, no matter what.

Steve

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Aldon

I only had a problem with one side. The drivers right side. It's the drive belt side.

 

At the time I had not broken down my parts tractor so I had complete back end on jacks so was able to use the hub that came off to make the fixture to wrestle the tougher side off.

 

Also, while your pulling rear hubs, it's a good time to consider whether your axle seals need replaced. 

Edited by Aldon
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ztnoo

Aldon,

Just noticed the last part of your message.

I really appreciate the offer you've made.

I'm going to continue to seek a hub out now, because if I don't and get into what you encountered in the spring when I need to mow, I would have a big problem here.

I think I need to allow myself plenty of time to resolve this situation.....just in case things go really badly.

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953 nut

:WRS:  If you don't plan to remove the hub and just want to move it back to the end of the axle you could get a heavy steel plate (3/8" or thicker) and drill four holes and get bolts of the size and length necessary to go through the hub and put nuts on them. Clean the stub that is exposed and lubricate it and use more PB Blaster, now tighten the bolts uniformly as much as you can and tap on the back side (not the flange) of the hub, may need to let it rest under tension overnight and repeat.

 

Hope this works for you.

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ztnoo
13 hours ago, Aldon said:

Also, while your pulling rear hubs, it's a good time to consider whether your axle seals need replaced. 

 

Aldon,

So what all is involved with replacing those seals? I assume the hubs have to be removed to do that.....am I correct? Also, what about the woodruff keys? Should those be replaced if the hubs are removed? Did you replace yours in your resto? Where did you get your replacement parts......the seals, and the woodruff keys, if you replaced them? What did you do to your axles when the hubs were off to clean them up? How hard was it to reinstall the hubs on the axle and what was your procedure for doing that? Did you use new set screws in the hubs when your reinstalled them?

Steve

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Aldon

Steve,

 

The seals can be removed with some care without removing the axles once you have the hub off.

 

Then slide new one on axle and gently tap into place.

 

I used brass and steel brush attachments on my drill to to clean up the axle of rust. 

 

Then fine emory to further polish the axle high points. The rusting had caused high spots.

 

When done, I used anti Seize liberally and it was easier to slide the hub back on. Nothing more than slight tap with rubber mallet necessary at this point. I only polished enough to remove rust and not so much as to make the fit too loose.

 

I saw no need to replace my woodruff keys. if you wish for a little greater holding power or anti slip of Hub to Axle you could drill a lite indentation on axle where the locking bolt contacts the axle.

 

I did choose to use a new bolt and nut rather than reusing the older ones which were in bad shape.

 

Pull the part number of seals from the manual. If you don't have the manual with parts break down, check our manual forum. I think I got my seals from NAPA but cant recall for sure.

 

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ztnoo

I've got all the manuals (owners, parts, Sundstrand, etc) that go with the tractor, plus some sheets for attachments I don't even have. So, because I have the original part numbers, knowing what I'm looking for isn't the problem. I was just wondering where you are sourcing the new parts you have been replacing?

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Aldon

The new parts come from different sources. Toro specific come from Toro, RCPW, Jacks, EBAY NOS etc.....and Amazon (Having Prime membership this past year paid for itself several times over.)

 

Some parts are generic and once ID. OD dimensions or length and thread size and pitch, I exercise my google foo and try and locate best / lowest price.

 

For some things such as Hydraulic hoses and fittings, I utilized vendors and part numbers from other threads on this site to order replacements.

 

In some cases they are not exact but in affect same and new. The Hydraulic connections were specific to WH so someone on this forum smarter and more experienced listed a work around.

 

I have spent lots of time using the search engine and reading through many topics and threads.

 

Electrically I followed one of Martin's older restoration threads for marine grade wire and terminals etc. That will be one of my next major undertakings.

 

Hope this answers your question.

 

 

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ztnoo

Well, today I was able to score two GT 14 rear hubs and the axles off eBay.

Hallelujah!!! Now I'll have something for a hub puller and a spare, if need be, in case I blow a hub out pulling them.

 

I had noticed the hubs quite some time ago and noticed they hadn't moved over several months.

Also I saw the axles, but I'm not quite sure how long they had been listed.

 

Anyway, I thought maybe both things were maybe listed a little on the high side, and maybe that's why they hadn't moved.

I also noticed the seller had a lot of volume listed (not all tractor related)......about 3000 items, so I concluded maybe he was doing listings full time (making a living of selling on eBay), and because of that, needs to move goods on a regular basis.

So, on a whim, I emailed the seller, explained I had been watching both items, and politely asked if he'd consider "bundling" (a favorite American Pickers term) the two sets of items, and if so, how much would he ask for them.

 

Lo and behold he replied within less than 24 hours, and said he would do a "bundling" deal, for $40 less than the separate auctions combined asking prices. It amounted to a 24% discount.

I'm pretty happy because I get two rear hubs (which don't seem to be readily available) pretty quickly to use for a puller, and I get two axles I'll warehouse. They aren't making this stuff in South Bend anymore, so core mechanical parts that pop up from time to time might be beneficial to have down the line.

So maybe sometime towards the end of next week I'll be testing my hub pulling skills.

I guess it just proves, if ya don't ask, you'll never know. I had nothing to lose by asking....and maybe something to gain.....so I'm pretty pleased with the deal.

 

Edited by ztnoo
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ztnoo

Yesterday I received my GT 14 hubs and axles.

I'm going to collect the appropriate hardware today to make up the hub puller with one of these new eBay hubs.

Hope to get started with hub removal this afternoon, and I hope this inventive shop "trick" does the job getting my hubs off that have been on for 35 years.

I've ordered some Kroil to use but it hasn't arrive yet. I've been spraying PB blaster on the hubs for about a week now and given them a few heat cycles with a torch, so we'll see how this goes without the Kroil.

I know given assembling all the best things together for the job, getting the hubs off may be a royal PITA and battle, but I'm going to stay positive, not assume the worst is going to happen, and see how it goes.

Wish me success.

 

Steve

 

 

Edited by ztnoo

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ztnoo

Got my eBay GT 14 spare hubs on Wednesday and rounded up all the hardware to fab a puller and started on the right rear hub yesterday.
Bought 1" x 6" and 1 x 8" bolts, and 3/8 bolts in 4" and 5" lengths, plus washers and nuts to adapt the eBay hub to my tractor mounted hub.
Got everything mounted and hooked up and got started on the right side hub (the one that hadn't moved inward toward the housing).
I was a matriculating hub pulling freshmen, and even with all I've read about this process and suggestions about how to best proceed, I will admit to being perplexed and worried about literally "pulling this off".
I knew this was generally one of those "*****" type jobs that......as they say, can try a man's soul. And make his vocabulary more vocal and expansive, even objectionable.

Since I had scoped out the axle seal replacement thing yesterday morning and located replacements, I was much less worried about applying heat as I continued. So what if I melted those suckers down to the floor, as long as I knew I could get new seals to replace the old  critters.
Got everything hooked up and started. Things were going real slow between alternating tightening the 1" bolt against the axle end and tightening the 3/8" bolts.

 

I've been treating the hub with PB blaster for days and since I had located the proper replacement axle seals, I wasn't worried about heating the hubs up with a mapp gas torch several times. I've been told too much heat exposure renders seals to worse leakage, so great caution is called for if one doesn't intend to replace those seals. Aldon here on RS, who is doing the GT 14 resto-mod, is the one that convinced me to the replace the seals while I was in there working in the area. There has been evidence of leakage, but not horrific leakage, and they are likely the OEM originals. If so, I'd say 47 years is damn good service life!

Alternating several times between heating, PB application (my Kroil order hasn't arrived yet), light tapping with a ball peen hammer at right angles to the axle shaft around the hub, and use of the puller, I was able to finally remove the hub from the axle. Its not anything a guy is going to hurry up very much. It has its own pace to do it safely and without damaging anything. I tried to do the bulk of the loading on the puller after thoroughly heating the hub. It took me a total of about three hours to get it off. One thing that would have been helpful would have been having 1" bolts with more threading. The 6" bolt only had 2 1/2" of threading, and the 8" bolt had only 3" of threading. What I found, because of the axle shaft length of the hubs are about 4 3/8" in length, the limited threading on the bolts limited its travel to "push away" from the axle end. I had to stop and insert sockets into the hub to increase the travel distance of each bolt. The bolt that worked best for me was the 8" bolt. If it had even a 4" threaded section, it would have made a difference. A 1" bolt with about 5" of threading would have been perfect for my application with these GT 14 hubs and completely eliminated having to use anything for a spacer to increase the travel of the bolt. I don't know if threading like that is available on 1" bolts, but it would have made it a one step operation......I wouldn't have had to back everything off to inset a socket.

Another factor was I discovered something akin to the old carpenter's theory of if you can't move something with one hammer, you get a bigger hammer.
The force required to pull these hubs, even using a like hub as a puller, as I found out, is considerable. I found I got to a point where I couldn't exert enough leverage with what I was using (a larger pipe wrench) to turn the 1" bolt.
Solution: create a longer lever (i.e. a bigger hammer). I had a piece of heavy walled steel tubing which would slide over the pipe wrench handle extending its length to about 3 1/2'. Definitely a longer lever. It allowed me to continue turning that bolt inward, but still at some significant muscular effort. Not a cakewalk, for sure.

What was interesting examining the right side axle after hub removal was there were places no penetrating oil had seeped, even after using all that heat on the hub. These areas were essentially dry, but had a red oxide coloration which was evidence of water infiltration over time. There was lots of evidence of water infiltration in the area of the keyway slot in the hub for the woodruff key on the axle. If I ever get the hubs back on after a serious clean up on the mating surfaces of the axle and the hub, I think I'll seal the open areas of the keyway with a dab of clear silicone to inhibit moisture infiltration. My tractor has been garaged the entire time of my ownership (35 years) with the exception of maybe five nights being left outside during mowing season for a problem that occurred that required being left in place until the next day. I can't imagine trying to pull hubs on something left outside for years, either covered or uncovered.

Today I'm going to move around to the left side and start on that hub. This is the one the has slid inward about  1 1/8" from the end of the axle, where it originally was located. I think this hub will be tougher to get off, but that's conjecture on my part and we'll see how is goes. I now "get it" how pulling hubs can make a man lose his religion or start drinking earlier in the day.  I may need to stock up for the next axle.  ;-)

Regards,
Steve

 

IMG_0447.JPG.e290bb2e5a8c5c26f502c9dcaeb  IMG_0448.JPG.a3395f984c90c4342b1f46119ef 

 

IMG_0449.JPG.2d11ea93837dbd3076fa0fb6777  IMG_0450.JPG.d58d11692710e18ef1e41351a19

 

IMG_0452.JPG.38355834c3a920f98bcc24b12dc   IMG_0455.JPG.2e1c0431d8638ab9c9836250b0f

 

 

 

Edited by ztnoo
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Aldon

My left side or non pulley side was easier than the driver side. When I tried using your method with breaker bar, I was torquing the entire tractor off the jack stands. Although I might have had better success it the other 3 tires were installed and the engine was still installed for weight. Congrats on breaking it free. Let us know if you get the other side done.

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DennisThornton

Good example of why it is important to spray and wait!  And wait, and spray again and wait again.  Water had numerous opportunities for almost 50 years to get in there so it might make sense to give PB or whatever a few days to do penetrate.

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squonk

I can't tell by your pic, but if you used a fine thread bolt as the forcing bolt instead of a coarse thread, it would have come off with a lot less effort.

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ztnoo


The 1" x 6" and 1 x 8" bolts I bought had 1 x 8 thread. That's all I could find locally.

Are you saying the fine thread would have spread the pushing load over a great number of threads and thus reduced the load on each thread and as a consequence would have reduced the effort require to turn the bolt?

 

By biggest beef was not have a bolt with full threading or at least more threading on it.

If I would have have a fully threaded 1" bolt, once I got everything in place, I could have kept turning the bolt until the hub came off, instead of having to stop and insert a socket to increase the bolt travel.

 

 

 

Edited by ztnoo

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ztnoo

Phase #2: The Left Rear Hub, Graduating To Sophomore Hub Puller Status.
As famous radio news personality Paul Harvey use to say, "and now for the rest of the story".

Started the left hub yesterday afternoon. Made a few modifications to the original puller set up. In the first operation, I noted the nuts I had placed on the outside of the hub to lock the bolt tightly in position on the hub being pulled, kept loosening as I tightened the 1" pusher bolt. I think there was some minimal stretching of the bolts going on and that's the reason the nuts loosened.
I decided if I added a flat washer and a lock washer, the bolt would be much more stationary and rigid and the nuts attached likely wouldn't have to be continually retightened. That proved to be correct in practice.
Aldon mention earlier, "Your hub has shown willingness to move so that's a positive. In the final analysis, I would say that's correct.
I think the fact the hub had earlier slid inward 1" to 1 1/8", must have broken whatever rust bonding that existed. But I also think any corrosion on the axle shaft and the hub hole decreases the tolerances from what the installation was new, thus making for a tighter fit and creating more resistance to being moved. I had originally thought I would have more trouble with the left hub because it was going to have to be moved or "pulled" farther because of its more inboard positioning than the right hub.

As it turned out, my theory was wrong. Positioning of the 1" bolt was critical starting off.....keeping it centered meant alignment was tedious, and I had to fiddle with that and keep repositioning until the axle was finally starting back through the hub. Since I had already secured replacement seals to be installed later, I was much more liberal in my use of the mapp gas torch on this hub than the right hub. I also kept applying PB Blaster during the operation. I think making more use of heat is what made the difference in effort between the two hubs. If you recall, the right hub took me about three hours to remove. This left hub was removed in 1 hour, 50 minutes. So I feel I learn some tricks that worked for me and my technique improved on the second hub. Interestingly, even though I had been treating the hub with PB Blaster for a week or so, I observed even less evidence of penetrating oil seepage along and around the axle shaft than I did on the right hub.
Most of the shaft had a very dry look to it, not at all like the wet, slick surface you'd expect to see after using penetrating oil for a considerable period of time. The area of the axle shaft most affected by moisture infiltration on this hub, as on the first hub, was the woodruff key slot cut in the hub.

So, I guess my next order of business will be to get these axle shafts cleaned up, and see if I can get the woodruff keys popped out so I can get the axle shafts polished up. I'll also do what I can to clean up the axle bores in the hubs and get rid of any corrosion still lurking therein. Then tie into the axle seals.

1.  Any particular thoughts on "polishing" up the axles??? My thought was to get them good and clean and start the tractor up and engage the tranny, run it at very low axle speed, and use it like a lathe. What materials or grit wet sandpaper should I start with and progress to??? Or use 0000 steel wool? I'm open to any and all suggestions, so if you have 2 cents to offer, I'm all eyes and ears.
2.  Also, a new concern I have now is, how will the hubs go back on without fighting as much as I did to get them off? What's been everyone's experience with this operation?
3.  Lastly, any opinions about replacing the woodruff keys and the set screws in the hubs?

Regards,
Steve

 

IMG_0458.JPG.d654e5ce498a29cecf8d3a506e7  IMG_0460.JPG.dc7457c65766fdf14034b07c650

 

IMG_0459.JPG.6977e73fe18a8b96e3ece5f7c3c  IMG_0463.JPG.f118c47be82fdf81e8b732639cd

 

IMG_0468.JPG.71c911e0482210475a8b6b1790c  IMG_0469.JPG.ffe33f0dadcbbab2eeee10debf4

 

IMG_0470.JPG.ae8cb7809b5833762181b53ca0c

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Aldon

I had most success using an Emory wheel in an electric drill to knock off rust and ridges left by rust buildup.

 

i also used dremel with Emory wheel to clean the inside of the hub.

 

the anti seize acted as lubricant.

 

your experience may differ but the hubs slid on with no additional leverage than a slight tap with rubber mallet.

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ztnoo

Aldon,

I've been thinking about your statement of your situation removing your hubs.

 

On 2/14/2016 at 8:53 PM, Aldon said:

When I tried using your method with breaker bar, I was torquing the entire tractor off the jack stands. Although I might have had better success it the other 3 tires were installed and the engine was still installed for weight.

 

Reflecting on that, I would say you were at a distinct mechanical disadvantage trying to remove hubs with the wheels (front wheels included) off the machine and the entire tractor frame on jack stands. Decidedly so. You were essentially operating on stilts.

I have my rear on two 3 ton stands and the front wheels are on the ground and chocked.

Having the front end on the ground improved my leverage because I had something stable to work against. I can assure you the way my hubs were stuck, I needed every advantage of leverage I could muster.

If I understand how you finally got your hubs removed with the hydraulic puller, I can now understand why you had to resort to the purchase and use of that specialized tool to achieve your goal of pulling the hubs. It's still a handy/dandy tool to have around however, and I'm sure you'll find other specialized uses for it.

 

If your front end had been on the ground, I'm guessing you could have done what I did with more common, readily available tools.

Another advantage I probably enjoyed was other than the rear wheels being removed, my tractor is complete....tranny, engine, front weighed grill, and all the body work, even the mower deck is still mounted. The GT 14 weighed 840# new. I may have eliminated 40-50 pounds taking off the rear wheels.

 

I had a lot of mass in place while pulling my hubs, while you had very little. And what mass you did have, was up in the air on stilts (jacks).

If I had been you, attempting what you were doing, I definitely would have lost my cool.

You found a work around though (the hydraulic puller), and that's a great thing.

Everybody's situation is always a little bit different.

All of us get a little bit smarter discussing our different circumstances doing the same job or procedure.......thanks to this forum!

 

Regards,

Steve

Edited by ztnoo
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      Now is would be better described as a HEMORRHAGE.

      Some of you may remember me doing battle a year ago last winter with the rear hubs on my GT 14 to originally correct an issue with one which had slid inward on the left axle.
      In the course of that adventure, it was mentioned to me that might be an excellent time to replace my 47 year old axle seals.
      They were leaking somewhat, but were not what I would describe as an emergency or huge fluid loss problem.
      I decided since it was the middle of winter and I was messing with the hubs, the suggestion made perfect sense to do some preventative maintenance at a leisurely pace given the time of year.
      So I was able to complete my horrific hub removal/woodruff key battle, but managed do the axle seal installation without major drama.
      I had completely drained the tranny prior to axle seal removal and upon installing the new seals and a new tranny filter, filled with fresh Type A tranny fluid.

      During the middle of the mowing season last summer, I began to note my hydro ground speed response was a bit sluggish and slow.
      After checking the fluid level in the tranny, I noted it was low.
      The system is a 4 quart system and it required over a quart to bring the fluid up to proper level.
      I checked around a different locations of the hydraulic system for some obvious telltale signs of loss.
      The new axle seals looked great, no loss there. The hydraulic cylinder looked OK from what I could tell after hosing the area down and running it again after cleaning. Didn't appear to be any significant or apparently loss there.
      The hoses looked OK with no cracking or splitting, and their fittings seemed to be leak proof.
      However after running the tractor for a while in a stationary position and using the control valve which lifts and lowers the mower deck, I could detect leakage out of the top of the valve. The leakage was only coming from the top of the control valve in the area immediately below the valve lever itself.
      My assumption is since I replaced the axle seals and stopped any fluid leakage in those two locations, potential leakage problems in the hydro system have migrated to the next weakest point.........in this case the control valve (#8363).

      Unfortunately, I did not attend to this problem last winter as I should have (DUH!), being aware of the problem.......which of course continued the remainder of the last mowing season.
      So..........guess what? The problem for some reason has not resolved itself without my engagement over the winter. And now its mowing season.......and in the two mowing sessions I've done since getting my mule drive problem and deck gauge wheel axle support problems resolved after running over a 3/4" steel form stake, the leaking/hemorrhaging control valve seal is only getting worse. I once again added over a quart of Type A fluid before my first mowing this year to bring the fluid to proper operating level.
      I know it needs fixed meaning new internal seals need to be installed. The problem is how to get to the control valve to remove it or manipulate it in some fashion to install the seals on the spool valve and get it reinstalled in the control valve body without tearing the tractor half way apart.

      Lots of older WH tractors have the hydraulic control valve on the outside of the hood stand or some side area of the tractor generally on the left just forward of the the seating position and under the dash area, which would make servicing the spool valve a relatively simple procedure.
      Not so with the GT 14.
      The control valve is located between two tall, heavy gauge "C" shaped steel panels which sit on top of the frame rails.The hood stand mounts to these "C" channel members. There is about 5 1/4" of width between the C channels......not a lot of room for a guy with big hands and fingers to operate.

      My primary question is can the control valve and its primary operating part, the spool valve which has two seals, be serviced without completely removing the valve body from the tractor???
      Is it possible to manipulate the valve after removing the mounting bolts from the right side C channel in such a way to gain access (the spool is removed from the bottom side of the valve body by removing a snap ring), either from the top or the bottom of the tractor to successfully remove the spool valve from the valve body, replace the seals, and reinstall the spool valve in the body of the valve without removing all the hoses and completely removing the valve from the tractor?
      Without the tractor running, will there still be residual hydraulic pressure in the lines and in the system in general which would cause fluid to spurt out once a component is removed.........a hose or the spool valve itself for instance?

      The control valve is WH part # 8363 and I see that Lowell Scholljegerdes (wheelhorseman1000) has a seal kit for resolving this leakage problem with "Control valve seals #7788". The seals are very reasonably priced and readily available and will undoubtedly fix the tremendous leakage at the top of my control valve.
      https://www.wheelhorseman1000.com/product-p/00123.htm
      The problem is what all is involved to get to the valve for the repair and how long something like this might actually take to get the tractor back in service?
      One of my big concerns is the hoses which are now 48 years old. They show no signs of leakage now, but I fear if I start manipulating and moving them around too much messing around with the control valve, I'll create a whole new dilemma.

      The big problem is its right in the critical time of year for mowing season here in Indiana, and with the mass quantities of rain we have had the last week or so, once it turns 75 or 80 or more, I'm going to need to mow twice a week just to keep up. Since my GT 14 is my only tractor and my prime tool for mowing, I just can't afford to have it down for a prolonged period this time of year.
      If there's not a decently quick and reasonably simple removal procedure someone can suggest, I may just have to continue to keep the fluid level up in the tranny and control the mess of the leakage around the top of the valve as best I can until a drier time of year when mowing isn't a pressing twice a week issue. I might even have to just grin and bear it and keep adding fluid until mowing season is over in the fall. That assumes of course the hemorrhaging doesn't get disastrously worse than it already is.
      I'm anticipating once this particular leakage issue gets resolved, the next weakest spot in the hydro system will show up, but first things first.

      Any suggestions or words of wisdom anyone has to offer about this repair, I am completely open to listening.

      Thanks,
      Steve

      p.s.  I've attached a few pics below of the control valve and the affected area which is leaking for your reference.
       

       
      leakage area circled

       
      leakage area circled

       
      ***  Updated Addendum: June 1, 2017
      See my last post dated June 1 on page 2 of this thread.
    • ztnoo
      By ztnoo
      I've been looking for a replacement small General Motors pickup from roughly 25 years ago in reasonable shape for 4-5 months.
      After reviewing untold numbers of CL listings during the period, I ran across what looked to be a reasonable mileage example in good aesthetic shape within a reasonable driving distance from my location.
      It was listed on CL in Louisville. Not exactly the next county over (a three hour one way drive), but a good enough prospect, I decided to take a day road trip
      3hr 2min, 187 miles, per Mapquest.
       
      I was thinking.......OK Steve, you are wanting to drive to Louisville to look at a vehicle, so what if I couldn't find anyone (a local friend/neighbor) available on Saturday to go with me?
      Three strikes and I was out. Bingo. Reality sets in.
      My theory was, if it was something I really decided I wanted, I needed to get it out of Louisville THAT day. But with no drafted co-driver, I had a definite problem.
      In a eureka moment, I remembered Chaplain Manny, who I had never met, but with whom I have conversed extensively, not only here at RS, but on various WH FB sites, and by email as well.
      Manny was raised in Louisville, so I instinctively knew he would be an excellent guide and pathfinder in a metropolis I had no familiarity with, other than passing through on I-65 to go to Florida.
       
      So, I messaged Manny on Friday with my situation and proposal and asked if he would be available to assist me for a few hours on Saturday. He now lives east of Jeffersonville (across the river from Louisville, in Indiana) in a very small rural town.
      He replied and told me he was available to help me, given his wife and young son were away at a wedding he wasn't attending.
      I explained the situation generally, and to my amazement and luck, Manny agreed to help me go into Louisville on my long bed S-15 quest.
      I arrived a little after 9 am at Manny's residence (following a three hour drive) and Manny proceeded to guide me into the bowels of Louisville.
      Traffic was horrific for some reason on Saturday morning on both southbound bridges over the Ohio River into downtown Louisville. Manny speculated there had to be some big event going on downtown that morning, but we never did learn what it might be. I would have definitely lost my cool sitting and waiting for traffic to start moving and the stress of trying to navigate the unfamiliar interior of a major urban jungle. But Manny took it all in stride and we eventually maneuvered around the bottlenecks and we got to the desired address in an area of town known as Germantown.
       
      So the short of it is, I bought the truck because it was in excellent shape for a 1990 model with reasonable mileage given its age, and Manny drove the station wagon while I followed in the S15 and we went back north across across the bridge over the Ohio River leading the way back to his place east of Jeffersonville. Generally speaking, the theory "move your feet, lose your seat" applies to CL items, because they can move very quickly and you usually have to have your ducks lined up and be ready to act promptly, or there's a high risk of losing your chance. With Manny's help and assistance, I was able to achieve my goal.
      Manny let me park the truck at his house until I can draft a friend into a day road trip to go retrieve my little S15 jewel later this week. When we got back to his place and he showed me his Wheel Horse collection and ongoing projects and we philosophized about life a bit before I left.
       
      Manny is a great caring and helpful person with a warm and outgoing soul. He has considerable health issues for a male of 56 years of age, but he does his best not to allow that to distract his quality of life and daily routine. I now consider him to be a friend and buddy and not just a correspondent........having met through our mutual interest in Wheel Horses, GT 14s in particular.

       
      Steve
      ___________________________
      Manny & me.

       
      Manny in front of my purchase.

       
      My "new" S15.

       
       
    • ztnoo
      By ztnoo
      I've discovered the main engine pulley driving the hydro pump seems to be a bit loose.
      I need to pull the clutch and associated pulleys off to have a look at what's going on back there.
      May be just a loosened allen screw mounting the pulley, a bad key, a bad pulley bore, or some combination of all three.
      Is the clutch mounting bolt going into the crankshaft a right hand thread, or a left hand thread?
       
      Anyone have a quick answer?
       
      Steve
    • ztnoo
      By ztnoo
      I have a Kohler K341 on a GT 14 tractor.
      Its always had the typical .....what are they called?........pepper shaker muffler? on the tractor.
      I've had to replace them several times....they seem to just eventually burn up.
      I can honestly say even from day one whenever I installed a new muffler of this type, I really couldn't tell that it really muffled much noise, maybe a little, but very little.
      As usage time goes on, they all got nothing but louder.
      Of course, part of this is the sheer displacement of the motor......35.9 cu. in. = 588 cc. Think of it in terms of a slightly bored out Norton Manx 500 cc thumper with an open megaphone exhaust. Deafening! You don't want to be standing 8 or 10' behind a Manx when it being warmed up and the throttle is being "blipped" to do that, without ear protection.
      These older flat head engines seem to be much louder than the newer OHV engines which are common in lots of equipment now.
       
      I've owned and used this tractor for 35 years now, and I guess I'm beginning to become somewhat of a crotchety old senior, but its becoming annoying to me (the operator), and I in fact had one neighbor that ragged me out over the noise.
      It may be because they have a pool and spend a fair amount of time outside, and the pool is about 10-11 feet from a chain link fence that divides the properties.
      I'm really not that worried about the neighbor nearly as much as I am myself, or should I say my hearing.
      I already have hearing loss from years of firing pneumatic nail guns and listening to compressors and heavy machinery running on job sites.
       
      What are you other K341 owners using and doing to get more muffling accomplished?
      Surely there has to be a more reasonable solution which will allow you to hear yourself think after an hour or hour and a half of operation.
      Is there a viable, positive solution for this problem so my ears and head don't ring for an hour after just mowing my lawn?
       
      Regards,
      Steve
    • ztnoo
      By ztnoo
      As many of you know, I've been in a prolonged battle with the rear hubs, woodruff keys, and oil seals on my 1969 GT 14, Model # 1-7441.
      I'm to the point of installing the new SKF oil seals today as soon as I can round up one more PVC fitting to properly size it to my seals for tap in installation.
      After that, its spin on the new NAPA 1410 hydraulic filter, and then fill with ATF.
       
      When I drained the tranny, I measured and computed the volume of ATF taken.
      It was right at 128 oz. + or - maybe two ounces. The volume spec says 4 qts. (4 qts. = 1 gallon = 128 oz.)
      So I know I was within spec, and wasn't losing large amounts of fluid, although I have a couple of random minor seepage locations on the tractor.......mostly around the control value which raises and lowers the mower deck.
      ATF is always what has been in the tranny, so that's what's going back in.
      My reason for caution regarding what to use specifically is probably more a matter of jargon and my understanding of terminology than anything.
      Of course, since my GT 14 was a first model year tractor, Type A transmission fluid was specified in all the literature.
      Type A is no longer available, but it my understanding is that equates with Dextron II.
       
      But isn't Dextron II now an outdated designation?
      If so, what should I be putting back into this Sundstrand  90-2062 tranny to ensure continued adequate trouble-free lubrication???
      I have more than a little angst over wanting to make sure I used the right product in this transmission.
      The changes in products over the years makes it very confusing for those of us who only occasionally wander in and out of discussions like this and automotive/mechanical related jargon and word usage generally.
       
      So gentlemen, what are your specific recommendations on tranny fluid to use in my Sundstrand, and is there any particular brand any of you favor over another?
      Or is it pretty much the case that ATF is ATF is ATF, the world around?
       
      Looking forward to your suggestions and recommendations.
       
      Regards,
      Steve
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