SO, YOU WANT TO SAVE THAT WH 3 PIECE TRANNY

[squonk 42,260]

On 2/29/2016 at 9:49 AM, WHX6 said:

My take apart was having the cluster gear upside down..... very easy to mistake to make!

If it goes in easier than what Steve described it might in backwards!

My rule of thumb. "If it goes too easy, something is wrong"

[Racinbob 11,634]

On 2/20/2016 at 1:29 PM, stevasaurus said:

RacinBob and I were talking yesterday, and Bob had an idea to be able to use an axle and axle gear from a 2 piece transmission and incorporate it into the 3 piece transmission.  We all know that the axle gear and spiders are the weak spot in these 3 piece transmissions, and replacements are getting hard to find.  We have already shown in this thread that you can use the spider gears out of a 2 piece tranny differential and use them in a 3 piece tranny differential.  We think you can use the axles and axle gear from a 2 piece tranny and put them into the 3 piece tranny differential. 

    Here are a couple pictures of the 2 types of axles.  The one on top is from the 3 piece tranny, and the one on the bottom is from a 2 piece tranny (#5025).  They are both the same length and diameter...10 5/8" long and 1" dia.  Both have the 1/4" hole for the roll pin on the axle gear end and both are keyed for the hub on the other.  The only difference...one is keyed and the other has a spline. 

 

The 2 types of axle gears are the same gear and the teeth are also the same width.  The one on the left is keyed and the one on the right is made to sit on the spline.

 

If you cut off the flange and use it as a spacer in the differential housing, you could switch the axles and axle gears.

 

 

 

The flange has the same OD as the bronze bearing...so everything would stay in it's place.  The bronze bearing is 1 1/2" long and 1 1/2" OD...the flange is 5/8" wide and the same 1 1/2" OD.  Pretty cool...and Bob may have found a bushing that works, so you don't even have to cut off the flange.  If the bushing is less then 5/8" you just have to cut the bronze bearing a little longer to compensate.    What do you guys think??

 

Steve, getting back to the modification to utilize the splined gears and axles in the 3-piece case. What was the length of those 1 1/2" OD x 1" ID bronze bushings? I can't find my note. I found a source that should have them just the right length.

 

[stevasaurus 23,034]

The bronze bushings are 1 1/2" length.  The bushing that is needed to make this work would be 5/8". 

[Racinbob 11,634]

Oke doke. I'm going to email the company and find out what I can do.

[Racinbob 11,634]

Lane and I missed you today on Skype Steve. Anyways, I have a bronze bearing on the way for the axle conversion.

[Lane Ranger 11,096]

 

A little more progress on my RJ  restore/rebuild is happened this week.

 

 Starting to get a little more work accomplished.

 

The front wheels I am going to use are painted and have been drying for a couple weeks.  My front tires arrived this week.

I plan on using sawtooth tires  (that I bought  from K.Morrow Tires in Springfield, Missouri online) on the front and I am unsure about the back tires at this time -may use a sawtooth type  rear tire.

 

The seat pan, seat spring, lift handle and  clutch/brake pedal  have been sandblasted and primed and painted (using Regal Red Rustoleum).

 

 

The  clutch/brake rod and frame have been sandblasted and painted also.

 

My  Kohler 4 HP  K-91 is ready other than the installation of the  recoil cup and recoil which I have two new old stock parts to install on this motor.

 

Hood work wil be delayed for another month or so.   I did get the new steering wheel installed on the RJ steering arm.

 

 

[stevasaurus 23,034]

Looking real nice Lane.  I got the rubber trans shifter covers from you, and the axle gears from Jake the other day.  Still waiting for the case from Brian01. 

[Racinbob 11,634]

This has been discussed but now let's see it actually done. I latched on to a 1" id x 1.5" od bronze bushing. It was 2.5" long so I cut two at 5/8". The idea is to modify it so much more readily available spline gears and axles can be used in the 5003/5010 transmissions. On the left is the 3530 gear original to the 5003/5010. In the middle is a 3908 gear from a 2-piece transmission. The right is the modification. The only downside to this is with a splined axle you lose the ability to flip the axle to get fresh steel riding on the outer bushing. 

 

 

They pressed in pretty easily and just flush them up with the case. I use a large flat washer that won't allow them to recess in. It will just butt up to the differential housing bushing.

 

 

 

Fits just like an original.

 

 

And a complete differential for a 5003/5010

 

[WHX?? 50,447]

4 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

splined axle you lose the ability to flip the axle to get fresh steel riding on the outer bushing. 

 

I don't think that is a huge issue Bob ... doesn't it take years of abuse before the outer gets worn that bad? Gotta think that most 5003/10 trannys are not workers anyway?

[Racinbob 11,634]

Definitely true on both counts Jim. Here's another shot of the axles and you can see the wear on the original axle where it rides on the outer bushing. Simply a new bushing and it would be fine for a long time. I would still flip it just because but it wouldn't have to be done. Although I would think that roughness would wear the new bushing faster.

[stevasaurus 23,034]

Outstanding Bob...one more step done to making these 3 piece transmissions virtually indestructible.   

Jim,  the real issue here is to be able to use the axle gear from a 2 piece transmission in the #5003/5010 transmissions.  The axles from a 3 piece transmission are really no problem, as they can be made on a lathe.  It is the axle gears for the 3 piece transmissions that are becoming rare. 

[Lane Ranger 11,096]

 

Bob:  The theory looks to have full practical application now that you have applied the bushing and washer!   Looks great.  

[Lane Ranger 11,096]

 

 

I picked up a Suburban Wheel Horse idler arm today.  This is an idler arm and  brake side arm (for clutch rod and spring attachment)  that goes on front  of the case on the Suburban three piece transmission.   It is different on the brake band side of the three piece transmission from the RJ idler arm.   A  1/2 inch round  rod runs from the welded arm on the idler pulley side to a cast part  ( Original is # 3865) that slips over the eight inch long rod.  The rod slips into the #3665  part and a roll pin  is placed in the two parts to hold in place.   The hole for the cast part in the rod appears to be  drilled at a 45 degree angle from the welded idler pulley side. 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Lane Ranger

[Racinbob 11,634]

The idler arm, or at least the pulley is for an RJ Lane. The 3635 clutch arm is Suburban. Save that trunnion Lane. The clutch rod going to the pedal wasn't adjustable on the 60 Suburbans, the 61's used that trunnion for adjustment.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Racinbob

[stevasaurus 23,034]

It is the suburban linkage with a RJ tension pulley.  The thing I am wondering is if the roll pin hole, in the shaft, is in the same place for the RJ and the Suburban linkage on the left side.    The answer is out in the garage. 

[Lane Ranger 11,096]

We when I first looked at this I thought lhat the pulley  which is smaller than what I remember the Suburban to be was an RJ  pulley.     So  this could be exactly like you and Steve are indicating  the idler arm is an RJ  and the clutch/brake rod  cast part  (# 3635)  is for a 1061  Suburban!    

 

This is the photo  Jake and Doug Kuhn took of the two  idler arms  (RJ and Suburban)  from ones that they had removed.   This shows the differences pretty clearly.

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Lane Ranger

[Racinbob 11,634]

That idler arm for the RJ looks shorter than the Suburban. What does it measure? Here's one I have for a Suburban. It's 4 7/8" long overall. Also note that not all 3635 clutch arms are cast. Mine is welded steel. I'm thinking that generally the 60's were steel and the 61's cast but I'm sure they're mixed up. Once I get the sheared roll pin out of the rod I'll be able to get a pretty precise angle on it.

[Lane Ranger 11,096]

Bob:  I think the idler arm and brake side arm you posted is just like the one I posted above.     The only  difference is the RJ  2 inch pulley on the  idler side of the one I posted.   My measurements  for the idler I posted are the same as yours.

 

[Lane Ranger 11,096]

 

 

The new front tires for the RJ rebuild project are on the wheels!    I decided upon Carlisle Sawtooth tires for the RJ  front.

 

 

[Racinbob 11,634]

Looking great Lane. Good choice in tires. 

Back to the idler arms, I think the arm you measured is a Suburban arm. It just had an RJ idler pulley on it. Do you have a known RJ idler arm? Looking at the picture Jake and Doug sent I think the RJ is shorter. I'd like to see one posed like these two to see the angle of the roll pin hole.

 

 

Again, the Suburban idler is on the left. The right is a 657 but is typical for many models.

 

 

[stevasaurus 23,034]

Bob, Lane has an RJ set up, but I have it.  Maybe I can get out there and grab a couple of picks today for you all. 

 

[Lane Ranger 11,096]

The  setup I had was sure Not an RJ  idler Bob and Steve even though it had an RJ idler pulley on it.      I made a rough drawing of the  two idler arms  for the  idler pulley side of the RJ and Suburban that are still  ROUGH.    I made a scan to post here but I also asked Jake Kuhn the other day for some better measurements as  I believe he may have them as parts removed from the transmissions.

 

This is the arm on the pulley side and the RJ  is shorter  with a  1.2 inch hole to weld the 1/2  rod running from side to side of the transmission and a 3/8 hole for the RJ idler pulley bolt.

 

The Suburban idler are is linger and has two 1/2 inch holes drilled in it for the idler road and the idler pulley bolt.

 

I  did not get the measurement for the hole centers on the RJ  but I do have for the Suburban idler  (I will post that later).

 

 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Lane Ranger

[stevasaurus 23,034]

OK...looking to wrap up my part in this thread.  These next pictures are of building the 2nd transmission (a Suburban #5010).  A shot of the completed differential.

 

Starting to build on the side plate.

 

We needed to find a good casing with all the bolt holes in place.  Managed to get one from Brian01 in Missouri.  As you can see the forks are broke off and the reverse idler is rusted in place.  I put this in the Electrolysis tank

 for a few days to loosen things up.  That tank works great.

 

 

I robbed the welded casting of it's shift rails, forks, detente balls and stop with spring.

 

 

 

I also replaced the reverse idler and it's shaft.

 

 

 

 

I had some left over gasket material, so I decided to cut a couple gaskets.  That tool in my hand is a 5/16" hole punch (ACE hardware).  Place your material on a piece of cardboard and just tap the hole with a ball peen hammer.  I cut the inside out with scissors and I trim the outside excess with a razor knife when complete.  The excess material on the outside is nice to have for adjusting the gasket. 

 

 

 

 

Just a picture of the spline shaft and gears in this trans.

 

 

And, finally...here is a shot of the back of my truck loaded for Mentone to give all this back to Lane.

Final total....1 complete RJ #5003 trans, 1 complete Suburban #5010, with another good case...the parts to put another Suburban #5010 together, and we are just short a few pinions, differential, axle gear from a 4th trans that is going to RacinBob.. 

 

 

[SylvanLakeWH 27,092]

Thanks for such a great thread!

 

Man - You know you stuff!

 

[stevasaurus 23,034]

@SylvanLakeWH  ,  I had a few advantages in doing this thread.  I had some very good people that know a lot also to work with...RacinBob, Lane Ranger, pfrederi, Buckrancher, Squonk and a host of others.  It was also a huge advantage to have 4 different 3 piece transmissions and  1 two piece transmission all sitting there open to compare with.  I was just lucky to have this opportunity...and I just want to say...I don't think I could ever give back to Red Square more then this site has given me.  I know that sounds corny...but it is true.  This place keeps me young at heart.