Lane Ranger 11,096 #101 Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) Ok I picked up a FOURTH TRANSMISSION today from a friend in Indiana. Axles turn on hubs but the shifter is locked in place. I heated this up in the garage today and opened up fill plug and seat spring bolts but no fluids came out of the transmission. I am taking this up to Steve on Tuesday to see if we may have some better spider gears out of the differential in this Suburban transmission (same as RJ inside but a few changes outside) We need three good spider gears and one axle gear to complete three good transmissions. Interestingly the Code on the top of this transmission case is K11%0 which I think translates to November 11, 1960 as date of production. Notice the two matching drive pulleys on the outside of the case. Edited February 6, 2016 by Lane Ranger 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 23,034 #102 Posted February 6, 2016 I'm just going to post these pictures of these 2 differentials and let you guys look at these and chew on them for a little while. One is the 2 piece and one is the 1 piece. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Racinbob 11,634 #103 Posted February 6, 2016 Interesting. How about a shot of the two 3559 shaft/gears? Per the service notes there should be a difference. Lane, the input pulley(s) look like two separate pulleys and not one double. How is the outer pulley held on? I wonder what they had in mind with that. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lane Ranger 11,096 #104 Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) Bob: The two pulleys are on the shaft and they are separate but just alike. Two belts had to be running to the motor on this. The second pulley added would probably mean the Suburban tractor this was on would not have had its belt guard on due to belt clearance etc. This transmission if you look close had green pain on top of red at one time. It was a backup transmission that was owned by the RJ owner who used his RJ to plow his garden. The cracked center case (with three big weld beads on it) in some of the first pictures Steve posted on this thread was replaced with a second transmission by the RJ garden plow owner. The Suburban transmission I posted yesterday (the so called Fourth Transmission) has not been used for quite a few years! Edited February 6, 2016 by Lane Ranger 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Racinbob 11,634 #105 Posted February 6, 2016 I figured that Lane. I just didn't think the shaft was long enough to get any bite on a second pulley. Mine certainly isn't. I would like to have seen the idler pulley for that. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 23,034 #106 Posted February 7, 2016 It appears that the 11/44 toothed gears are identical. Time for a little "eye candy". RJ plates are done...on one side. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MWR 321 #107 Posted February 8, 2016 This may seem like some strange questions, but what color red is that? Is there a "Wheelhorse" red? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WHX?? 50,447 #108 Posted February 8, 2016 That can of Rustolem you see there is Regal Red if I know Steve ... That's what most of us use. There are a bazillion posts here on the "proper" red but the general agreement here is as long as it's red. I think another member said it best .... proper color red is like throwing hand grenades ...just get it close! 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 23,034 #109 Posted February 8, 2016 Like Jim said...it is Regal Red from Rust-Oleum. I happen to like the Rust-Oleum and Regal Red is a very good match for the older Wheel Horses. Krolyon, makes a good red also...I think it is Cherry something. If any paint has an IH Red (International Harvester)...it is a good bet you could use that and it would be close. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squonk 42,260 #110 Posted February 9, 2016 "Blind hole" puller just arrived from China. covered in oil to prevent rusting in case the "Si-Pan Express" sank! Goes from 8 to 30 MM. Now that I have it I probably will never need it! 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WHX?? 50,447 #111 Posted February 10, 2016 Ain't that the way it goes Sqounk. ..now that ya got it you won't need it.....unless ya go git another horse... I might just hold off on that purchase as Steve's carriage bolt isn't even broken ( in) yet..... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oliver2-44 10,219 #112 Posted February 10, 2016 Steve looking at the 2 different differentials could the one piece diff have a bad gear machined off it and s new style gear be bolted on in its place? I'm following all this closely so I can rebuild mine! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 23,034 #113 Posted February 10, 2016 14 hours ago, oliver2-44 said: Steve looking at the 2 different differentials could the one piece diff have a bad gear machined off it and s new style gear be bolted on in its place? I'm following all this closely so I can rebuild mine! I think you hit it on the head Jim. The castings are identical, and it appears the teeth have been machined off and then turn a face on it. BTW Jim, have you found all the parts you need yet?? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,923 #114 Posted February 10, 2016 On February 6, 2016 at 9:31 PM, stevasaurus said: 23 minutes ago, stevasaurus said: I think you hit it on the head Jim. The castings are identical, and it appears the teeth have been machined off and then turn a face on it The part you bolt the gear to is as wide as the gear, including the teeth. So if they turned the teeth down on a gear like the one to the right, there would be no room to drill and tap the holes. My guess (definitely a guess) is they used old gear blanks, before the teeth were cut in, to make the new style. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 23,034 #115 Posted February 10, 2016 Close Brian. I think you are right about using the blanks, but they are not the same size. The turned one is just over 5" dia, and the one with the teeth is just over 5 3/4" dia. It does not make since to cut off the teeth though if you have the blank. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WNYPCRepair 1,923 #116 Posted February 10, 2016 44 minutes ago, stevasaurus said: Close Brian. I think you are right about using the blanks, but they are not the same size. The turned one is just over 5" dia, and the one with the teeth is just over 5 3/4" dia. It does not make since to cut off the teeth though if you have the blank. Then I am probably wrong. I was talking about the width of the two parts above. I thought the one on the left was a gear before they cut the teeth into it, but if it is smaller, that can't be correct. And now that I look again, the distance between the 4 holes around the center hub are farther from the teeth that from the turned, drilled, and tapped(?) part on the left one, so it is probably not left over blanks. Looks like they just used the same mold, after modifications, to cast the one on the left. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 23,034 #117 Posted February 10, 2016 I think you are spot on Brian. The turned one does have some subtle differences, so the casting is different and beefed up for the bull gear. The casting had to be close to fit in the transmission and use the same spiders. I think there may be enough there to turn all this and< if you could find the bull gear, be able to mount it on an older casting...thus saving the transmission. I have a 2 piece transmission open...let me check that bull gear and see if it is the same. The bull gear is exactly the same in the 5025 (2 piece, 3 speed, uni-drive), as in the 5010 2 piece differential. WH #3906. The bolt holes line up, same teeth...it is the same. This might mean that you could take a 3 piece bull gear differential,(with broken teeth) machine it to accept a WH #3906 bull gear from a say 702 tractor transmission. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lane Ranger 11,096 #118 Posted February 13, 2016 My RJ parts have been sandblasted and lightly primed. A few before blasting photos and some after. Going to have to make some new gas tank support straps for the RJ hood. I have a new gas tank which has the neck in a little different location on the top of the tank. The old gas tank straps will have to be removed. I removed one set that was a replacement piece held on by two rivets. I am thinking that I can have the new straps welded on a plate that I cut out (from some newer Wheel Horse hoodstand plate material) that has the 2 and 1/2 inch hole for the gas tank neck and cap. This should then be able to be welded on the underneath of the RJ hood to strengthen the overall tank placement. Here are some pics of parts being looked at. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 23,034 #119 Posted February 18, 2016 Finally had a warmer day to do things in the garage. I have had that 4th transmission from Lane for over a week now, (pictures at top of page 5) and it has been driving me crazy to get into it. Really, all we need is the casting to have all the bolt hooby-doobys...the other 3 are all missing at least one, and one of them is missing 2. I don't know why, but they always seem to be on the input gear side and on the bottom. Anyway, we finally have a good casting with all the hooby-doobys. Lane bought me a set of these Grace USAshort, roll pin punches that Sorekiwi recomended back on page 1, and they are the "cat's meow". They tapped out that pesky roll pin on the tension pulley linkage with no problem. If you do roll pins, this is a must set. So I got this thing apart. Some rust on the gears. The rail shafts are rusted enough to freeze them in place. Looks like the E-Tank is making another visit. The bearings may be OK and most of the gears look alright...have not cleaned them yet. The gears in the differential are toast. Each axle spins by itself. The spider gears are stripped, but the differential housing looks OK. Need to clean up things yet. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WHX?? 50,447 #120 Posted February 18, 2016 5 hours ago, stevasaurus said: roll pin on the tension pulley linkage I thought there was supposed to be a cotter key there as that's what I took out, wondered why it was so sloppy, thanks for the info Steve. Jim, I am going to edit in your post...if that is OK. That roll pin is WH#1244....1/8" X 1" roll pin. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lane Ranger 11,096 #121 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Steve: I knew you would be hitting the 4th transmission today. When I saw 40 degrees plus coming to town! Looks like a very good center case piece Steve! That black goop in last picture is a little different too from the other ones.. Must have had water or lots of moisture in air to be rusted up as much as it is.. We usually see that white milky stuff when lots of water combines with the gear oil. Are e all four spider gears stirpped of threads?? Edited February 18, 2016 by Lane Ranger 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 23,034 #122 Posted February 18, 2016 The black goop means it has been sitting for some time (years)..the caramel color comes from the emulsion you get when you run the trans. I couldn't wait...had to tear into that differential. Both axle gears are chipped, maybe one spider is OK, the axles appear to be fine, and the differential and bull gear is good. One side... Other side Axle gears. Bull gear and teeth. And here are the bad guys... Those roll pin punches are a must have...no bending at all and the short ones are great for starting the pin. What a difference good tools make. A SPECIAL THANKS TO SOREKIWI for the roll pin information. Just a comment...when you have a horse that is not going anywhere and is like lurching and waiting for things to catch up before it moves, if it is in the transmission (and not the wood ruff keys or hubs)...the above picture is most likely what you have going on. 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squonk 42,260 #123 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Great pics. I'm wondering what the garage smells like with all these trannies apart. If there's gear oil around a mile away I know it! ( Just ordered the short and long pin set) Edited February 18, 2016 by squonk 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,133 #124 Posted February 18, 2016 This thread is really very informative and all the pics are great! Steve, you are doing an amazing tutorial on these transmissions and Lane, i think your interjection with the progress on the tractor is great too! Who would have known that all of this would be contained within a thread titled: SO, YOU WANT TO SAVE THAT WH 3 PIECE TRANNY... I have to be honest, with a title like that, at first i was a little scared to look...... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lane Ranger 11,096 #125 Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Steve: Those spider gears and axle gears are starting to get me to improve make updates to my machinists mailing/telephone number list. No wonder there was no resistance when we were turning those axles in that 4th transmission Steve! That one axle gear looks like it has only a third of the gear teeth on it. Martin: My RJ redo may just cause me to buy another one or two ! I am piecing together parts and ideas for the redo. Squonk: That garage still smells like Rock and Rye ! Believe me! Edited February 18, 2016 by Lane Ranger 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
