SO, YOU WANT TO SAVE THAT WH 3 PIECE TRANNY

[stevasaurus 22,841]

20 hours ago, can whlvr said:

so can the gears still be found,do you have a stash of parts to get all 3 trannys going?just curious

              Don, there is a long and a short answer to your question.  The short answer...I do not have a stash of parts and I know of a few guys that have some parts that may be able to help me out. 

             The long answer.  Probably, all of the gears, the casting, the side plates and the axle cap seals are NLA from TORO.  That doesn't mean that an old Wheel Horse dealership does not have something buried in the back on a shelf.  Some of these gears are the same in the 2 piece transmissions...input shaft gear, 1/rev and 2/3 fork gears, splined pinion gear, cluster gear, and the pinion and reduction gears on the cluster gear shaft.  The side plates can be made easily from scratch.  I know of one member here who has made new axles from scratch (he made me 2).    You can still buy all of the ball bearings, the needle bearing and the bronze bearings...and all of the seals (except the axle cap seal), and the roll pins.  That leaves the casting, the reverse idler, the spline shaft, the large mushroom gear, the differential housing and the axle gears and differential pinions that are going to be hard to find and common only in the RJ and Suburban transmissions.

              The bad news...the teeth on the mushroom gear, the teeth on the bull gear, the teeth on the axle gears and the teeth on the pinions are really the weak areas of these transmissions.  When the 3 piece transmissions quit working, you can bet it is going to be one or a combination of these things that failed.

              I happen to have a 2 piece transmission open and cleaned in the garage.  I'll take some pictures of the gears together for comparison and some measurements.  Maybe that link to Kamen, that Wayne gave us, may have something we can use.  If so, that would be excellent. 

 

Picture of the gears that are common in the 3 piece and the 2 piece 3 speed transmissions.    3 piece tranny on the left.

across the top...input gear and shaft, spine pinion *the shaft on the right is longer in the 2 piece tranny,  the differential pinion *these are the same size...the one on the left #3531 has 12 teeth...the one on the right #4235 has 11 teeth. (they may work in both trannys).

Next row...cluster gear, 1st/rev fork gear above and 2nd/3rd fork gear below.

Bottom row...cluster shaft reduction pinion, cluster shaft reduction gear.

 

Picture of the gears that are different between the 2 types of trannys.  3 piece tranny on the left.

Mushroom gear and axle gears.

[Lane Ranger 10,979]

Steve: I did some Wheel Horse manual checking today reflecting the RJ and suburban differential spider gears. I found the #3531 spider gear was used in RJ, and the  400, 550, 551 and surprisingly the 701  (5007) transmissions.  However, the # 3530 axle gear was only used on RJ and 400 and 550 transmissions.  

[Racinbob 11,179]

Right on Lane. The 5007 was only used for the 551 and 701. In 1962 they went to the 5025 with the 4235 gears. All the 2-piece case transmissions used a splined axle instead of the keyed axle.

 

This is a great thread.

[stevasaurus 22,841]

        You guys are getting to where I want to go next.  Remember the discussion about the Bendix gear in the high mount starters on the Kohler 10, 12 and 14 hsp engines.  I think that Bendix came with either 8 or 11 teeth, and both worked on the same fly wheels?? 

        I have a feeling that either spider gear (#3531 or #4235), as long as you use 4 of the same, will work in either the 3 piece transmission differentials and in the 2 piece 3 speed transmission differentials.  I took both kinds of spiders today and they roll around and mesh nicely on either kind of axle gear.  My plan is to put a differential together with the spider gears from the opposite differential and see if the axle gears will turn smoothly with the axles in place.    This would be huge if it works, since it would open up a whole new area to replace parts.  It sure is nice to have some different transmissions open at the same time. 

[Racinbob 11,179]

Very cool Steve. I was thinking about that but assumed that it wouldn’t work because surely the axle gears had a different number of teeth. I just now counted them and they both have 25 if I counted right. I had to count the 3530 from your picture but I think I got it right. You may be on to something

[Lane Ranger 10,979]

Yep and Bendix was made in South Bend too ! Just like Wheel HorsE!

[stevasaurus 22,841]

CONFIRMATION ON THE SPIDER (DIFFERENTIAL PINION GEARS). !!!! 

The #3531 spider gears from the #5003 & #5010 RJ & Suburban differentials will work in the #5007, #5025, #5046, #5048, and #5053  Roundhood 2 piece, 3 speed uni-drive differentials and vice-versa...ie. the #4235 spider gears will work in the RJ & Suburban differentials.  The only difference between the 2 types of axle gears...one is splined for the axle and the other one is keyed.  They are the same OD with the same amount of teeth.  The difference in the spider gears...the RJ & Suburban has 12 teeth...the uni-drive 3 speed has 11 teeth.  This means that you can use spider gears from say, a 702 transmission in the differential of a RJ transmission.  One thing, you have to do it in sets of 4 pinions...ie. You need four #3531 spiders, or four #4235 spiders...you can't mix them up. 

       First 2 pictures show the 2 types of axle gears.  third picture shows the #4235 spiders in place of the #3531s.  The axles turn smoothly...they have to...the axle gears are the same. 

 

 

 

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,841]

Cleaned up a couple RJ side plates today.  I wanted to pop out the seals and bronze bearings in the side plates and in the differentials.  The early 1958 RJs came with a different axle seal then the cap seals we know of today.  WH# 1232 which crosses to SKF# 9815.  I have a feeling that they started leaking as soon as the axle bearing started to wear.  These 2 plates had the WH# 1232 seal in them and one of the plates had the cap seal on top of that. 

        Use a small screw driver to dig out the seal.

 

 

 

If you look at the above picture, you can see the bronze bearing.  Notice how the bronze sleeve gets very thin on one side.  This is where you get the side to side or top and bottom movement of the axle.  This is why they leak.  Attack the thinnest part of the sleeve with something thin and strong...a good flat blade screwdriver works great.  Hammer down and pull in to rip the sleeve.  does not take much and then you can grab it with needle nose or side cutters and just pull the sleeve out.

 

The other axle plate has one of the cap seals on it.  Carefully tap the edge of the seal out off the axle.  These are NLA and when you could get them, they where about $18 apiece only from TORO.  Be careful, because the seal may clean up and be OK...or you can put in the WH# 1232 with the old seal back on top.

 

 

When I put the bronze bearing back in, it will get seated flush with the inside indent so as to do the double seal thing. 

 

The bronze bearings that were in the differentials, I just tapped out with a good punch and ball peen hammer from the inside.  They pop right out. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,088]

Steve

 

What is the OD of the outside seal? I doubt it was originally designed to be driven over a tube. Years ago many seals were made like that. Any numbers or letters on them to identify the maker?

 

Garry

[Racinbob 11,179]

Yes Garry, that was by design. Check out figure 1 in the 5003-5010 section of the service manual and you'll see it. I had heard about the early 5003's being able to accept the inner seal but never saw one until this thread. The later cases couldn't accept the inner seal and you just used the 1257. As late as about two years ago Toro still had some 1257 seals. I bought a couple for my 5010 and wish I would have bought another pair even at close to 20 bucks each.

[stevasaurus 22,841]

@GWest (Garry) the axle tube OD is 1 3/8"...the seal is 1 3/8"+.  There are no numbers on the seal, but I have seen enough of them to know that it came from Wheel Horse...(TORO) 

 

BTW...if someone is trying to find these cap seals at their TORO dealer...the WH# 1257 number has been changed to TORO# 83-2840.

[Racinbob 11,179]

https://www.torodealer.com/en-us/Pages/Search.aspx?k=83-2840

 

I read somewhere that Toro no longer had them. By golly they do. Price went up as well.

[AMC RULES 37,134]

So, where does one source the bronze bearings?   

[stevasaurus 22,841]

I get the bronze bearings from Motion Industries. 

Axle bearing...WH #1503...MI #CB 1618-12...Motion Industries Catalog # 00012369

Diff bearing....WH#1517....MI #CB 2224-14...Motion Industries Catalog # 00013787

If you go to Motion Industries.com and type the catalog # in the search box...you get a picture, suggested price, size numbers.  Just so you know, the differential bearing is about 1/4" to long and you need to cut it to the right length.  Easy to do with a sawsall or hack saw. 

[stevasaurus 22,841]

First video...HOW TO POP THOSE PESKY BEARINGS IN THE SIDE PLATES.  Sometimes there is enough gunk floating around in these transmissions, when you go to turn one of the bearings, it feels like it is no good.  You need to pop it out, do a gunk tank, diesel, mineral spirits or something to clean and break lose the grit and blow it out...8 times out of ten, the bearings are OK...especially the closed ones. Nice 412-35 are closed...the S8K bearings are considered open bearings.  Anyway, I just bought the 6.5 gallon parts washer from Harbor Freight.  So far I really like this...uses biodegradable degreaser...smells like Pine-Sol...it does a nice job on smaller parts. 

 

 

These are the Nice412-35 bearings.

 

And these are the S8K bearings..

 

Here is the video with my Grandfather's bearing puller...This is the 1st time I have used this. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Callen 64]

Steve, Wonder if we could use an axle seal from the 2 piece transmissions if we press a bushing on the end of the axle housing and put that seal over the bushing?

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,088]

16 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

@GWest (Garry) the axle tube OD is 1 3/8"...the seal is 1 3/8"+.  There are no numbers on the seal, but I have seen enough of them to know that it came from Wheel Horse...(TORO) 

 

BTW...if someone is trying to find these cap seals at their TORO dealer...the WH# 1257 number has been changed to TORO# 83-2840.

 

I realize they came from Wheel Horse and now from Toro but neither company made them. My thought was to try and figure out who supplied/supplies them but if still available I won't bother. Names like Garlock and Victor come to mind but you don"t see them much any more.

 

Garry

[Molon_Labe 731]

4 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

 

I realize they came from Wheel Horse and now from Toro but neither company made them. My thought was to try and figure out who supplied/supplies them but if still available I won't bother. Names like Garlock and Victor come to mind but you don"t see them much any more.

 

Garry

Good point Garry. Last summer these seals were out of stock from TORO and now they are back again so someone must be producing them. If/when my seals go bad I'm going to try to insert a a Garlock 92X9518 seal into the old seal housing minus the old seal. It's dimensions are 1-3/8 OD X 1 ID X 3/16 width so it should be a good replacement candidate.

[WHX?? 49,100]

We was all going to chip in and get you  this set Steva but looks like good old Grampa is still with us!

[stevasaurus 22,841]

On 1/24/2016 at 5:57 PM, Callen said:

Steve, Wonder if we could use an axle seal from the 2 piece transmissions if we press a bushing on the end of the axle housing and put that seal over the bushing?

 

Callen, I think I understand what you are saying...and I think something like that is possible.  The axle seal in the 2 piece, 3 speed uni-drive is the same seal that I pulled out of the 3 piece transmission.  WH# 1232 which is SKF 9815.  I think we will explore this idea a little later in this thread...when I get one of the other side plates cleaned and check some measurements.

               Garry, I know you knew about the seals.    The seal I have out may have some numbers on the rubber seal part...hard to tell...could be just tore up in that area.  I have some more seals out there to take off yet, maybe I will get lucky.  I tried doing all this a couple of years ago...with no luck. 

               Here is a good shot of the 2 types of axles...actually they are the same...the RJ plate (on the left) was just turned to accept that oil seal.  The OD and the ID are the same on both plates. 

 

 

 

[Lane Ranger 10,979]

 

 

Partstree has the   83-2840  Axle Seal Listed for a little more money than Toro  but there are photos of the seal also.    $22.82 each.

 

 

https://www.partstree.com/parts/toro/parts/83-2840/

Edited January 25, 2016 by Lane Ranger

[stevasaurus 22,841]

I pulled out the bearings and seals on the Suburban side plates today. 

           We have one, kind of bad, S8K bearing...2nd from the left in the row of four.

 

I found a couple of thrust washers under 2 bearings.  That happens with these 3 piece transmissions.  Take a picture so you can put it back in the same place.

 

This is a better picture showing how the bronze bearings wear unevenly.  This would give you axle play from top to bottom.  Attack the thin part with a small screw driver to rip the bronze and then pull out with a needle nose pliers.    This plate also has the needle bearing for the brake shaft.  I pulled out the seal, but if the needle bearing is good (and it is) I hate to take the chance and ruin it pulling it out if I do not have to.  Needle bearing is KOYO #B-1212 Seal is SKF #7410.

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,841]

Today, I finally tackled the cleaning of that rusted, goopy trans and gears.  I'm going to let it set a few days and then start the E-Tank on the case.  This case has one of the bolt thingys broke also...so all 3 cases will need some welding to fix.  The gears look OK...not sure about all the bearings yet.    I can't wait to see what the E-Tank will do for this case.

 

 

I decided to try to take out the bearings from the plates.  The ones I could use a punch on came out.

 

The other ones are rusted in...we will try the E-Tank.    The axle bearings in these plates look good...might be able to hone them a little and then they will be alright.  Notice how the bronze in the same thickness all the way around.

 

Lane sent me a set of those short roll pin punches from Grace.  They work great.  Took that pesky roll pin right out.  Thanks Lane. 

 

[squonk 41,287]

I see you managed to get an unbroken parts washer from Harbor Freight. Guard it with your life. You may have the only working one in existence! 

 

I also notice your working in the laundry. Nice to know my "Brothers" keep the tradition of working on tractors in the house! 

Edited January 27, 2016 by squonk

[stevasaurus 22,841]

Ya Mike, they were out when I went there, but they were getting them restocked that night...went in the next day.  There was no time for the riff-raff to mess with it.  It does work nice for transmission parts.  The side plates can be done, but I don't think I would do the casting in this.    It is all plastic, but I like it for what I bought it for.