SO, YOU WANT TO SAVE THAT WH 3 PIECE TRANNY

[stevasaurus 22,841]

OK,  I just happen to have 3 of these transmissions...2 are RJ #5003 and 1 is a Suburban #5010.  The original goal was to build one good RJ transmission from these 3.  This is sometimes a neat trick in itself.  LANE RANGER (Lane Ralph) dropped these off at my house last weekend with that original goal in mind.

  (1st) this RJ tranny was on the tractor yet and froze up (the one on top in the wagon).  We dropped the tranny in about 20 minutes...it was cold outside.  (2nd) Suburban transmission (in front of wagon) was picked up as a spare.  (3rd) transmission was already disassembled and in a box.

      My thought with this thread is to show tons of pictures and some videos of taking these apart, what tools really come in handy, cleaning, fixing and going through bearings, gears and seals, some tricks (methods) that have worked for me, getting parts and what to look for, and maybe being able to save...not one...but 3 transmissions.  This thread is going to take some time to do...it's cold out...and I already know I am going to need some parts to make 3 transmissions.  Feel free to add to this thread, or ask any questions.    Here is the RJ Lane picked up...I think you can guess what the transmission looks like inside. 

 

 

I put the 1st transmission on the bench and proceeded to try to see what is going on inside by turning pulleys and axles.

 

I could spin the hubs in opposite directions, but I could feel that something was not right.  I think some broken teeth on the axle gears or pinions.  It would not shift at all...the shifter is there, but the forks will not move at all.  The transmission is in neutral, as you could turn the input pulley CCW and axles and brake drum did not turn.  I was lucky, the hubs came off with a little help from my puller...the keys, hubs and axles are in great shape.  Same with the brake band, brake drum and input pulley.  Notice the tension pulley in the above picture.  I did not have any luck getting that brake, tension pulley mechanism apart.  It has a roll pin holding that together and it was not going to come out.  I cut the rod in the middle of the transmission front with a 4" grinder.  I think I can get a new rod and drill the one end and weld the other.    Also, notice the dog point set screw is broken off flush with the casting.  Now I could take this apart.

 OMG...a 1/2" of goop, some water, a lot of rust.  You can see why the shift rails will not move.  After cleaning, electrolysis is in order here.  This transmission needs a good scraping and cleaning to see what else is good here.  I think the case will clean up great in the E-Tank. 

 

Transmission #2...this was picked up as a spare. 

 

This is the suburban transmission.  Notice the regular tension pulley.  I was shocked, but the hubs, input pulley, brake band and brake drum came off easily with some assistance from my puller.  I was also able to get that roll pin out and tap the tension pulley shaft apart so I could open this up.

 

As you can see, this one had no oil in it.  Somebody had rebuilt this and put it on the shelf.  All the gears and bearings look real good.  Differential turns nice, but I have not opened it yet.  The bad thing...the 2 bottom bolt nubbies are broke off.  They are stuck on the side plate...looking to try to fix this.

 

This transmission has the needle bearing for the brake shaft. opening.

 

 

Transmission #3...already apart and in a box.  This one has had a tough life.  The casting has been welded 3 times all the way across. ..and I think I see another crack.  something else what a camera and flash will pick up.

 

 

We have a issue with a couple of the bolt nubbies.  One is about gone, and the one south of that looks like it has a crack.  The welding looks top notch and the case appears straight. 

 

The side plates look good. 

 

The differential housing appears to have a crack. 

 

A couple of the pinions are half gone.  Notice this is the newest differential for the 3 piece with the separate bull gear bolted on.

 

The rest of the gears look good. 

 

OK...that is all for now.  Looking to take the differentials apart next...purchase a gunk tank and clean up gears and plates. 

 

 

 

[Shynon 7,460]

Nice pics and editorial Thanks Steve for sharing.

[can whlvr 993]

its nice that you take the time to teach us guys about these trannys.thanks its very helpful to see and hear how to rebuild these,my first 8 speed 25 years ago I didn't have a manual or computer,it was daunting but I was poor and to fix her and couldn't afford to take it to the dealer,so thanks you

[kasey54 305]

Well Steve you have your work cut out for you. This is very interesting, Ill be watching!

 Thanks so much for posting this

[squonk 41,288]

It's cold out? Well I'm sure your kitchen has heat!  This brings back memories. A frind of mine and myself tore a mini- bike Briggs apart in his kitchen while his mother was out shopping! I think we were about 10. This is back when gas smelled like gas and it didn't burn your skin so you could clean  parts with it! 

[slammer302 2,155]

I think its great what you are doing. I have two of these transmissions one in the RJ and the other in a suburban both are working but i have a feeling one day i will be tearing one apart.

[SylvanLakeWH 25,851]

Thanks for the great detail!

 

Interesting to watch...

[WNYPCRepair 1,921]

Weird, I looked at this earlier and the topic was empty, even the first post

Cool, thanks for sharing. 

[stevasaurus 22,841]

The next step is to take the 3 differentials apart.  I picked the one in the middle to start, which is actually the one with a crack in the housing. 

 

This differential has the crack on one side.  In the 1st picture, there is not even a bronze bushing in the housing on one side. 

 

The other side looks OK (as far as not being worn from side to side.), but this is where the crack is.

 

You need to tap out the roll pin that holds the spider gear shafts (pinions).  Those push out the back and then the gear can come out.  It is the same on the other side. 

 

You are now looking at the axle gears with their roll pins.  You need to tap out the roll pins...the axles go through the axle gears and are keyed (just like the axle hubs on the outer ends).  The axles pull out, with the wood ruff key, and then you can slide the axle gear into the differential chamber and pull it out. 

 

After taping out the roll pins. Use a blade screw driver, or a 2' pry bar to go in between the axle gears to get them started to come out.  You can align the wood ruff key notches to tap the axle on to the other axle to help push it out. 

 

Now this transmission is totally apart...except for popping out the bearings and seals.  the axles themselves look OK.  The one has a little groove where the seal might hit.  You can drill a 1/4" hole in the end of the axle a turn the axle around.  We will see later.  The plan is to take it all apart and clean it up first. 

 

We have 2 bad pinions out of 4...a crack in the differential housing...a couple of small chips on 1 of the axle gear teeth, a worn area on 1 axle where the seal would hit, and the bronze bushings in the differential carriage (while worn evenly) are grooved pretty bad.

 

Some how, I need to find a good quality set of roll punches...the ones I have are just junk. 

 

 

And this is just the 1st differential out of the 3rd transmission.    We will get them all apart and cleaned up, and then take inventory and see what we can do and what we have. 

[squonk 41,288]

Good roll pin punches are hard to find. I've had Snap-ON all the way down to Harbor Freight. They all get bent up. You might try these from Starrett

 

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/Hammers1/punches/starrett-s565wb-drive-pin-punch-set?utm_source=msn&utm_medium=shp&utm_term=B679361&utm_campaign=Punches&infoParam.campaignId=WR

[can whlvr 993]

I hear your pain on the punches,none seem to last

[sorekiwi 761]

I'm enjoying watching this thread Steve.

 

As far as punches go, my favorites right now are from Grace USA  http://www.graceusatools.com/  They make a great set of roll pin punches with the little doo-dah on the end to center the punch.  I have both the short and the regular set, start the thing moving with the short punch (less chance of bending the punch) and switch to the long ones when you need to.  Apparently lifetime guaranteed, but I've never bent or broken one.  Not expensive at all thru Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/Grace-USA-Gunsmithing--Gunsmith-Accessories/dp/B00H407C1O/ref=sr_1_9?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1453163140&sr=1-9&keywords=roll+pin+punch+set

 

At work we need to remove tapered pins that have usually been in place for over 100 years.  My punches at work are mainly Snap-on, but I break or bend a 3/32 or 1/8 punch every week, so I need to keep 2 or 3 of those sizes in my box.  I think about $20 apiece but no problems exchanging them when the Snap-on guy calls on Wednesday mornings.  I keep meaning to get some Grace punches for work.

[WHX?? 49,116]

Thanks for the punch info guys....I got the same set as Steve....

Edited January 19, 2016 by WHX6

[Racinbob 11,179]

Great write up and pictures Steve.

[pfrederi 17,850]

I have a set of the Dasco punches, looks just like yours.  They are NOT roll pin punches as they have a flat tip.  True roll pin punches have a bump on the tip that slips in to the hollow center of a roll pin.  I got a set of Mayhew punches from McMaster

[Lane Ranger 10,979]

Steve:  I logged in last night and this am to this Transmission Trilogy!  I am more impressed every posting you do on your knowledge about these RJ transmissions! I have sent a new Grace short roll pin set I bought for you as a set to do as Sorekiwi notes above.   I wish now I could find a piece to mate the cracked differential!  As you noted the third version of the RJ differential has some better features even though the one I had was cracked!

 

 

I told you the story that I traded an RJ front Wheel for the transmission in a box with one of my other Wheel Horse buddies.  The transmission center case with the welds was done by the original owner. He used his RJ with a garden plow every summer.  However he had a stump in his backyard where he had his garden  . The stump was low in the ground and he hit it hard and placed a crack in the case.  One crack that was welded and the transmission was placed back on the RJ with new internal parts including the newest version of the RJ differential.

 

Some years later he hit the tree. Stump again but this time cracked the transmission case in two more places. The case was welded but the differential had a bad crack in it as Steve's photos show us above.   The RJ owner then bought two other transmissions at an auction (not the two other ones I brought to Steve) and placed one on his RJ and kept the other as a spare.

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,841]

Thanks Lane...I was just going to order the short and the long set of those Grace roll pin punches.  They look like they are the sets to have.  I really like the fact that they have a short set.  A huge THANK YOU to sorekiwi (Mike) for that info. 

         pfrederi (Paul), you are correct...that blue handled set is just pin punches, not roll pin punches.  I do have another set that is a roll pin set, has the bump on the tip,..GRIP (GRAND RAPIDS INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTS).  The one in the shape of an "S" is from that set. 

        Lane, I would not go looking for parts yet.  Wait until I get them all apart and cleaned.  I'm thinking we can weld that housing, and so far, 2 of the three castings need some welding also. 

 

Going to take apart the other 2 differentials.  Being the Big Chicken that I am, I am going to do what I think will be the easy one first...from the transmission that did not have any oil in it.    I am just going to post the pictures, since I took one apart above.

 

She looks pretty, doesn't she??

 

A little wear on the axle ends, but not too bad. 

All the parts in this differential are good...E-Tank the housing a little and change out the bronze bearing, and good to go.

 

Pay no attention to that puller above for the time being...I am going to try to use it on some of the bearings in these transmissions. 

           OK, now for the gunky, rusty differential.  Remember I said the axles did not feel quite right, like spider gears or axle gears.  They would turn in opposite directions, but it felt like there was a bad spot every once in a while.

Surprisingly, as nasty as this looks, it came apart as easy as the one with no oil.  You just never know.

 

You can see a few teeth missing out of the one axle gear.  bottom-center below

 

The one spider gear (pinion), that is laying down, is missing some teeth also,   The rest of the spider gears and the other axle gear are OK.  The differential housing looks to be alright.

 

We will take a good look when these parts are cleaned and rust free,  Off the top...looks like total 3 bad spider gears out of 12...1 bad axle gear and 1 that is a maybe OK for riding around in the yard and at shows...one differential housing that may be OK with some welding.  That is not really too bad considering what they looked like in the wagon.  All the wood ruff keys and notches and key ways in the hubs, axle gears and axles are great.  That is a real +. 

     Waiting for my gunk tank and some nice weather to be able to continue.  Then comes someone to look at the welding. 

[squonk 41,288]

Better get that kitchen cleaned up in time for dinner!  Funny thing about punches. I have (had) a big honkin 3/8 dia  punch at work.I loaned it to our then 70 yr old lead mechanic. He returned it bent into a "U"  Of course this is the same guy who bent an aluminum pipe wrench handle 45 deg without putting a lever on the handle! 

Edited January 19, 2016 by squonk

[woodchuckfarmer 333]

Steve you could have the cracked differential turned smooth and have a sleeve pressed on it, That wood stop it from cracking more and give some extra support. Just a thought. -- Wayne

[stevasaurus 22,841]

Wayne...thanks.  That is just the kind of thinking I would like to see in this thread.  How can I say this??  I think we are getting to a point where we need to figure out how to fix what we have left...that wagon load of transmissions is getting hard to find, and you know... you never know what waits inside.  Would you still weld it and then have it turned??  Let me say this...I took a casting for some welding a few years ago...DClark now has that tranny...and as far as I know...it is still OK.  This guy was at a radiator shop and told me that this older cast iron is excellent stuff and, unlike the newer cast, is not hard to weld and it holds.    All of the casting things that are broke here is why I titled the thread like I did.  Hardest part might be finding the right welder.  The thing is, if these castings can be fixed...the price of RJ's and Suburbans will come down.              

    This is not just about welding.  Can we fix teeth on gears??  Can we repair pitting on gears??  Can we do it cost effective??  I would think most if not all members on Red Square are not really looking to fix an RJ 58/59 or Suburban to go out in the field all day, but pulling a cart or wagon for hayrides...driving around at shows...and maybe even mowing a lawn like mine (you could cut it with a pair of scissors)...getting around the "Cap Seal" for the axles.  This is what this thread is about.

      I just kind of refuse to accept getting 3 transmissions like this, and it is going to be tough to get 1 transmission back out of those 3.  I already know I can make 2...I am looking to make 3. 

[can whlvr 993]

so can the gears still be found,do you have a stash of parts to get all 3 trannys going?just curious

[woodchuckfarmer 333]

Steve I know that you can get gear blanks at places like Kaman. If you get the gear blank you can turn it down on the out side or bore it out to fit your shaft. Just have to have the right tool for the job.

[AMC RULES 37,134]

Wonder, is this the same place Wayne? 

https://ec.kamandirect.com/us/index.jsp

 

[woodchuckfarmer 333]

Craig I think so . The one in Elmira NY is called Kaman bearing. --Wayne

 

Steve you could have someone silver solder the sleeve on.

Edited January 20, 2016 by woodchuckfarmer

[C-101plowerpower 1,605]

10 hours ago, woodchuckfarmer said:

Craig I think so . The one in Elmira NY is called Kaman bearing. --Wayne

 

Steve you could have someone silver solder the sleeve on.

 

maybe even braze it