Safety Switches 414-8

[Ole 21]

Hi everyone, I'm having some issues figuring out what's up with my safety switches.  All switches were working when the issue started.  The mower started to kill in the middle of mowing every few minutes.  I'd start it up again, run the mower and keep on cutting until it would suddenly kill off and on.  It acts up periodically, sometimes it will keep running and sometimes it won't.

I later discovered that if I disengage the PTO lever when it starts to die, the engine would power right back up and keep on running.  Usually it starts to shut down if I try to engage the PTO lever again after restart.

Today with the mower cold, I started it up and let it run for 5 minutes.  With the mower running, in neutral and PTO disengaged...I can get off the mower and it stays running as it should.  When I lift the seat it stays running.  I was then able to engage the PTO lever with the seat down and it stayed running this time.  So, I lifted the seat with the PTO engaged and the mower started to kill.  I disengaged the lever and it kept on running.  I think this means the seat switch works?

I had ordered a new switch (110970) thinking it was the PTO switch.  When the part arrived, I realized it was the wrong switch.  I was supposed to order 2 of #111332 for the PTO.  I don't know what this other switch is even for, it has a single plunger and I can see this switch installed down below the shift lever hole in the frame but I don't know what it does.

In addition to the odd switch and not knowing what it's for, what's up with the safety switches on this mower? 

I took apart the PTO switch today and sprayed some contact cleaner on the connections.  When I fired up the mower, I was able to engage the PTO lever and the engine kept on running.  Odd thing, when I got off the mower and lifted the seat the engine did not kill.  So now I don't know if it's the seat switch or the PTO switch giving me problems or if it's something else entirely.

[oldredrider 2,549]

Suspect your seat switch and it's connections. Clean the switch with contact cleaner and make sure the connections are tight and rust/dirt free.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,090]

If the switch below the shifter is on the right side it is the clutch pedal switch activated by the belt idler pulley lever. This switch is in the starter circuit.

What is the model number of your tractor. Between 1986 and 1989 the wiring changed. Would like to look at the correct wiring diagram.

Garry

Edited November 3, 2015 by gwest_ca

[MalMac 1,331]

Sounds like a seat switch to me. Not saying 100% sure but I have had the same thing happen two or three different times. I myself because I am the only operator. I bypass them Lawyer switches.

[Racinbob 11,183]

From his profile it's an 87 Garry.
Ole, I'm with MalMac on the seat switch (and his last comment ). The switch is held open with the operator on the seat. Disconnect it and see what happens.

[Ole 21]

I cleaned the seat switch and the two small switches by the PTO.  The small switch by the shift linkage I could not get to.  The good news is, everything works now but I was not able to determine which one was causing the problem. 

I don't have the model numbers handy but it the year is a 1987.

[Stevie bdz 2]

I know this thread is 5 yrs old, but I’ve been very curious as to proper operation of my 414-8 (1989) seat switch. Every time I get off the tractor when it’s running the tractor shuts off. Which is annoying but I thought it was for safety. Today I had the tractor running and the snowblower engaged and I took my weight off the seat to reach see something ahead and the tractor didn’t shut off. So now I’m wondering if something is backwards with the switch. Any help would be great. Even pointing me in the right direction to understand the proper operation would be helpful.

 

thanks

 

(this group is great. Was reading through some old posts and found where to order a new seat spring that’s been bothering me since I got the tractor!)

Edited December 17, 2020 by Stevie bdz

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,090]

Is it possible the switch is froze in position?

 

[Handy Don 12,430]

2 hours ago, Stevie bdz said:

I know this thread is 5 yrs old, but I’ve been very curious as to proper operation of my 414-8 (1989) seat switch. Every time I get off the tractor when it’s running the tractor shuts off. Which is annoying but I thought it was for safety. Today I had the tractor running and the snowblower engaged and I took my weight off the seat to reach see something ahead and the tractor didn’t shut off. So now I’m wondering if something is backwards with the switch. Any help would be great. Even pointing me in the right direction to understand the proper operation would be helpful.

 

thanks

 

(this group is great. Was reading through some old posts and found where to order a new seat spring that’s been bothering me since I got the tractor!)

There are two switches activated by the PTO lever.

One prevents starting the engine while the PTO is engaged. Is this working properly? Please give that a try. (it has no effect on a running engine, only the starting)

The other, in concert with the seat switch, is supposed to stop the engine if you get out of the seat with the PTO engaged. It definitely sounds like the "other" is wired incorrectly.  The thing is, that the connectors for both of these switch have three conductors and are polarized. They can't be connected backward. Has someone rewired that tractor attempting to circumvent some of the safety switches?

[953 nut 55,722]

14 hours ago, Stevie bdz said:

I took my weight off the seat to reach see something ahead and the tractor didn’t shut off. So now I’m wondering if something is backwards with the switch.

I think you have answered your own question here. This thread may help you understand safety switches.

 

[Stevie bdz 2]

Gwest_ca - Thank you for the wiring diagrams. Those will come in handy when i dive into this issue. I've got them printed and ready. How would i check to see if the switch is frozen?

 

Handy Don - Thank you for the response I plan on rechecking the operation of the tractor will the PTO today when i get home just to make sure. What you are describing as proper operation makes complete sense. Everything looks like it's wired from the factory, meaning its not all hacked up. I'm the 3rd owner of this tractor and the previous guy didn't do anything to the tractor (just made sure it had gas and used it), but he did say the original owner was crafty and new an awful lot about wheel horse tractors. So maybe he could have done something. Not really sure. I will give a close inspection of each wire and its location using Gwest_ca's diagrams.

 

953 nut - Safety Switches 101, great thread i must have skipped right over this when i was searching about the seat switch. I will need to read over it again and work my way through the machine with this thread in front of me lol.

 

Between these 3 responses i should have everything i need to find the problem and make the proper fix! very much appreciated!

 

[Handy Don 12,430]

18 minutes ago, Stevie bdz said:

Between these 3 responses i should have everything i need to find the problem and make the proper fix! very much appreciated!

 

We share in order to have our membership well informed and our Horses running well. You're well armed and I'm sure you'll find the problem. Be sure to add what you find and do to the pool of knowledge. And always remember  (it says "PICS?")

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,090]

I am assuming your seat switch is a push button type that the seat pushes on when the operator is present. I have one that has frozen while in use so it will not pop back up on it's own. A heat gun released it and a spray of silicone lube fixed it. If it is the same switch lift the seat and manually push the button and see if it is free to move. I'm thinking water frozen and not rust frozen.

 

Garry

[Handy Don 12,430]

1 hour ago, gwest_ca said:

I am assuming your seat switch is a push button type that the seat pushes on when the operator is present. I have one that has frozen while in use so it will not pop back up on it's own. A heat gun released it and a spray of silicone lube fixed it. If it is the same switch lift the seat and manually push the button and see if it is free to move. I'm thinking water frozen and not rust frozen.

 

Garry

The fact that getting off the tractor killed the engine before even when the PTO was disengaged, tells me there is another problem. The seat switch grounds through the PTO switch to kill the engine. If the engine still shuts on dismount without the PTO engaged, then the seat switch is working and the problem lies elsewhere.

[Stevie bdz 2]

19 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

I am assuming your seat switch is a push button type that the seat pushes on when the operator is present. I have one that has frozen while in use so it will not pop back up on it's own. A heat gun released it and a spray of silicone lube fixed it. If it is the same switch lift the seat and manually push the button and see if it is free to move. I'm thinking water frozen and not rust frozen.

 

Garry

I verified the seat switch is not getting stuck down.

 

While i was feeling around under the seat for the wires i must of done something because now when i go to start the tractor the seat switch light was on but i was able to start the tractor and engage the PTO without it shutting off(i was not sitting on the seat).

 

I followed the wiring diagram for under the hood and this terminal block at least looks correct. I should have some more time today to get some more pictures and trace some more wires.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,090]

You may know this but in case you don't.

The magneto ignition is self-powered and the single ignition wire that goes to the pto switch, seat switch and ignition switch simply grounds the ignition to shut it off. DO NOT allow any battery voltage into that circuit because it will burn out the ignition coil.

 

Suspect the ignition half of the pto switch or the seat switch has failed. A dirty wire connection or broken wire will give the same results.

Click on the picture in each link for more.

Your wiring is like the 308-8 and 420-LSE in this illustration as they also have magneto ignition.

Seat switch - you can see the terminals identified in one of the illustrations.

Garry

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,090]

The indicator light system should have no bearing on how the tractor operates. It simply monitors the switch conditions. It can be disconnected and everything works as normal.

 

Garry

 

 

[Handy Don 12,430]

14 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

Suspect the ignition half of the pto switch or the seat switch has failed. A dirty wire connection or broken wire will give the same results.

Click on the picture in each link for more.

 

I agree, with the ignition half of the PTO being, to me, the more likely.

The switch is tucked into the hoodstand and attached to the side of the PTO lever mechanism. In the wiring diagram it has the dark blue and orange wires connecting it.

Test it with the tractor shut down by disconnecting the two wires and using a continuity checker. The switch should:

- conduct electricity when the PTO is engaged

- not conduct electricity when the PTO is disengaged

[Stevie bdz 2]

Thank you guys for all the info. I was able to manage some time today to look into the seat switch and I noticed the black wire was disconnected from the switch. That must have come off when I was messing with it the other day. But there is another wire just hanging out in there. Not sure yet what or where it goes. I took out the battery so I could get my eyes and hands in the pto switch area. I’m hoping to review the notes you guys gave and work my way through the testing procedures. I’ve attached a photo of the seat switch and misc. wire

[Handy Don 12,430]

It has a bullet connector on the end.  The only other wiring back there on your tractor is for the taillights--is this the ground for them? The power for them is usually green.