Pto belt problem

[rogden 3]

Hey everyone I am new to Red Square, I just got a new to me, c160. I believe its a 1977, it came with a  rear discharge three blade 42 inch mowing deck. Listening to the 16hp kohler, idle sealed the deal for me, you just gotta love that sound!

It had a brand new huffy blue belt on the pto running to the deck when i bought it. To make a long story short, it spewed white smoke under any load and burned up the belt in about 30 minutes. I did some research and determined the belt must have been to loose, so I cleaned up the tractor, went and got another huffy blue belt 96 x 1/2 installed it...tightened that mutha up and cut some grass.  I have about 2 acres and the grass was tall but about a third way thru I noticed the belt flopping around like it was loose. Sure enough it was, I tightened it again...and again...and again. By the time I was done cutting the grass the belt looked like it had been on there 10 years and i was almost out of adjustment on the mule drive. The belt was thinner and badly frayed.

Now when the first belt failed i took the deck off checked out the spindles, they were not loose no rough spots and i greased them. I also checked the mule pulleys, I didn't see any way to grease them but they spun nice. I pulled the pto hub off checked both bearings and greased them with lithium grease. Everything looked good!

After the second belt was shot I decided to try and diagnose the problem. I can spin everything with my hand, with the belt on, it feels ok. But what i noticed was the pto belt as it comes off the engine side pulley of the pto hub the side of the belt rubs the side of the pulley on the pto. It rubs on the tall side or  the friction pad / clutch side. I stood up and looked down and saw the belt was running on a angle inwards towards the motor as it goes down the the v pulley which is closest to the motor on the mule drive.

So I think this is the problem, it makes sense to me anyway that rubbing on the side of that belt would cause heat and would fray the belt, which is what I have. I just don't know how to adjust the mule to align the pulleys. Maybe its not the mule and the motor slide on the  on the mounts causing the mis-alignment.

Any help would be much appreciated folks!
Best Regards,
Rick

 

[rogden 3]

Above are pictures i took to try and show the alignment issue. You can see what about two hours did to the belt

[953 nut 55,035]

          Nice 

Attached is the manual for your mower.   http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/2300-mower-rotary-42in-rd-1977-75-42mr01-tipl-snpdf/

I think your mule drive is not attached to the bracket properly, there is a spring loaded pin that is supposed to go through the slot in the pulley side of the mule and isn't lined up in the photo. It should be saddled into the bracket.

Hope this helps.                                                                                                 Edited September 17, 2015 by 953 nut

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,030]

A bit later but this operator manual may help
http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/870-mower-rotary-42in-rd-1980-1983-05-42mr01-om-ipl-snpdf/

Garry

[chorusguy 227]

Think the belt is attached to the wrong groove on the PTO

[tunahead72 2,400]

Inner groove on the PTO pulley is correct, but that angle down to the mule drive pulleys doesn't look right at all. Does it look like that area's been damaged or repaired in the past?
Also, your belt shouldn't be twisted between the PTO pulley and the inner mule drive pulley.
Check the OM link that Garry provided, there's good instructions and photos in there.

[WNYPCRepair 1,914]

That belt seems awfully skinny in relation to the pulley, is that normal guys?
 

[squonk 41,017]

Your belt alignment on PTO pulley looks just like my C-160. The belt should cock in a  little but the belt clears the pulley's inner edge like in your picture. Your mule drive looks crooked like it isn't seated properly or bent. Also check the bar the Mule drive tension bolt pushes against. I have seen these bent ,cracked, rotted ect. If that bar is damaged, it will not maintain tension. The belt is skinny because it's being chewed up from alignment issues on the sides. We may need pics of the deck. Is the center spindle straight? And don't let anybody tell you that you have to use a WH belt. I use the blue and green belts for years with no issues. And no sense in investing in an expensive OE belt until the problem is corrected. You have a major alignment issue.                                                                                                                                

[squonk 41,017]

I would get a new belt, install it but don't run it. Take some pics so we can see how the belt is riding. That chewed up belt is hard to tell. And take some pics of that center spindle and pulley

[953 nut 55,035]

The photos you provided clearly show that the muel drive is not mounted properly,Take a look at the user manual download that "gwest_ca" has given you. On page 2 you will see how the mule drive should be mounted, do this and your problem will be solved.

[doc724 925]

I studied the pix carefully.  The mule looks like it is put on correctly.  There is a hitch pin missing from the trunion (just above the PTO bell), but other than having the trunion jump off, I don't think that is contributing to the belt issue.  And, yes, the over center spring is also missing but I think that only effects the engagment of the PTO bell. If you study the pix carefully, you can see the belt twisted again on its way to the deck.  When you put a twist in a belt, the length gets shortened a little bit.  Put two twists in it, it gets shortened a bit more.  Moreover, if you study the position of the mule drive, it looks like it is tightened the correct amount.  So, have we asked the question:  is the belt the correct length?  The poster says it is an RD deck which takes (I think) a shorter belt than a SD deck of the same cutting width.  Also, seems like a pretty simple question, but is the belt on the deck pulley or between the two pulleys?  Pretty easy to get it into the wrong spot-done it myself a time or two but discovered the goof before I started the tractor

[rogden 3]

Ok I was really hopeful that you were right 953. But I checked out the mule drive its siting squarely on the ears of the bracket and the pin is seating all the way up into the receiver slot. I took some pictures in one i know the belt is in the wrong place but i was trying to determine how far the pulleys had to move to get the belt running straight out of the pto pulley. I had to move the belt all the way to the flat pulley to get the belt in the ballpark of being close to straight.

I think maybe the motor is mounted wrong its hanging about 1/2 inch off the frame on the pto side and in about a 1/2 inch on the implement lift handle side. See the pictures. I have no idea why or how this could happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2015 by rogden

[rogden 3]

picture one 1 and 2 I am showing the mounting points for the motor on the implement lift arm side. Pictures 3, 4 and 5 I am trying to show how the motor mount is hanging past the frame atleast 1/2 inch. I am thinking this is the problem less you guys tell me this is normal. Not sure how to fix it either, I dont thing the fram is slotted to adjust the motor placement on the frame.

Hope this is clear

Doc thanks I think the mule is installed correctly to, now that i took it apart and looked at it. The belt is toast, I was just using it to illustrate the alignment issue. I am really starting to think its the motor mount. I can't believe any company let it roll off the production line with mounting ears hanging off the frame. But I could be wrong, wouldnt be the first or last time.

[oldredrider 2,548]

Your engine is mounted correctly. The overhang on the pto side is normal.

[rogden 3]

I am stumped then
 

[squonk 41,017]

Here are pics of my 76 C-160. You can see the belt does come off the PTO at an angle just like yours. The engine is mounted correctly. Please check your mower center spindle and pulley. I won't be surprised if your deck is weak  there and that spindle is crooked. You may have to take the deck off to check it good. Also remove the deck belt guards and inspect the other pulleys and belts. I got a small stick inside of that guard once and it did all kinds of damage to the belts. You really need to clean that deck off! 

Edited September 18, 2015 by squonk

[rogden 3]

Ok I will go pull the deck again.

[doc724 925]

Squonk (Mike) may be onto something here.  It is not uncommon to have the deck metal fracture around the spindle.  I have seen plenty of pictures.  Even if it is not fractured, overtightening the PTO belt by previous owners will cause the center spindle to tip forward and to the right, effectively wearing one edge of the belt.  It doesn't take much.  Even on my tiller with it's giant belt, the rear idler bracket was off true by a few degrees, the result was that the belt would rub the edge of the front idler (about 3-4 feet away).  I finally fixed it.  Tiller belts are way too expensive to trash!

[rogden 3]

Think I have used up my upload quota so I choose this veiw of the deck. I took the covers off nothing there other than some loose grass. Every thing spins smooth with no rough spots.

[rogden 3]

Kinda hard to tell but this may be bent. What do you guys think?

[squonk 41,017]

Need a pic of the deck from the side with the belt tensioned. It may look ok with the belt off but if the deck is weak, it will show up when the belt is pulling on it.

Edited September 18, 2015 by squonk

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,030]

The pulley shaft does look bent.

Belts will always climb to the high side of a pulley.

Garry

[rogden 3]

I am not sure the picture is very exacting but the ruler that is suggesting its bent is on the underside. And thats the direction I would expect it to bend in.
 

If your extend the line of the ruler out to the end of the shaft it seems like it could have moved maybe 1/2 inch?

I am not gonna be able to get another picture of the deck as you were asking for sqounk till tommorrow, I am out of daylight. Boy I bet you got some ribbing in school with a nick name like that!!

Edited September 18, 2015 by rogden

[rogden 3]

I noticed something else, when the v pulley on the mule drive is in it normal orientation it seems like it rotates smoothly, but with it upside down its a little noisy and has some subtle rough spots when turned slowly.

[squonk 41,017]

If there are any rough spots or noise in a pulley, the bearing is shot.