C125- Won't start

[futureian 0]

My C125 won't start. This happened a few months back and I figured it was not getting fuel since the filter had hardly any fuel in it. I cut the fuel pipe and filled up the filter with fuel and reconnected. It started.

Now the engine is turning over but it is not catching. After maybe 6 secs the engine stops turning and then I hear something (starter?) making a "spinning" kind of noise. The plug is dry suggesting that a lack of fuel is the problem The tank is full and the filter is 2/3 full.

Is the carb gravity fed (I guess not since carb sits higher up than the fuel tank? Apologies for the simplicity of the questions.......

Thank you

Ian

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,300]

The carb is fed by a fuel pump located just below the carb.

Mike.....

[Brian1045 28]

:hide:

This place is full of Wheel Horse guru's

Be patient and someone will come along to help.

Sorry...motors aren't my specialty :D

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,300]

Try shootin a bit of starting fluid into the carb and see if it starts. If it does you have spark. If it does not fire up then disconnect the fuel line from the fuel pump to the carb and crank her over. If it pumps fuel then the pumps good and the carb is probably gunked up with something. If no fuel comes out then either the pump is shot or the fuel line or filter is bad. Your tractor is around 24-29 years old and its possable that the fuel line is original. Might want to replace it no matter what you find.

Mike...........

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,300]

Ian, I almost forgot that there is a shutoff under the tank and it has a small filter screen that might be the problem. The screen is in the tank but is part of the shutoff piece and comes as one unit with a rubber grommit.

Mike......

[illinilefttackle 399]

Ian-if your plug is dry-you are not getting fuel to the cyl. Because it stared when you filled the bowl up-I think its your shut off in your tank. That's what happened to my C-125. You can blow compressed air back thru the line going to the tank-(take off the gas cap first-then listen for air coming up into the tank) If it works OK for a while then, but starts acting up again, you blew the stoppage out, but it came back-Also SEA FOAM works womders on these problems too.-AL :hide:

[MaineDad 85]

Maybe the starter gear is not engaging with the flywheel? If you look at the starter when you turn the key can you see anything spinning?

[futureian 0]

Thank you for all the suggestions. I will get an opportunity to check things out on Sunday night. If there is muck in the fuel tank is it easy to take off and clean out? Can I just haul the grommit out of the bottom of the fuel tank and give that a clean? Is sea foam some kind of dissolving agent?

I'll write back with an update.

Thanks again.

Ian

PS. Would like to undertake a respray on the tractor and therfore was thinking of removing the engine. Is this something a beginner could do?

[daemon2525 5]

PS. Would like to undertake a respray on the tractor and therfore was thinking of removing the engine. Is this something a beginner could do?

I think that you could do that. Just make a drawing of all of the connections and/or take digital photos of the thing before you start.

You decide whether you can do it or not, I just wanted to jump in and say that the

engine is a lot heavier than it appears! Do not drop it on your foot.

[Confused99 2]

I think that you could do that. Just make a drawing of all of the connections and/or take digital photos of the thing before you start.

You decide whether you can do it or not, I just wanted to jump in and say that the

engine is a lot heavier than it appears! Do not drop it on your foot.

I agree. I always take lots of digital pics before I completely take something apart. It is a life saver.

Jason

[linen beige 14]

I'm not really familiar with this engine, but I'm gonna take a chance. It may sound funny at first but might make sense in the end.

I gather that this engine has a "Bendix" type starter, meaning the starter drive gear pops out to engage the flywheel when the key is turned and retracts when the engine starts. This type of starter has two circuits in it. One turns the motor and the other powers an electric magnet that forces the drive gear out to engage the flywheel. If your battery is low on charge the motor will still turn but the electric magnet will not force the drive gear out. As these type starters begin to age it takes more and more power to make the magnet work and they eventually fail. This is known as a "bad Bendix". When they start to go bad they also don't turn queit as fast as they should, since the magnet robs power from the motor. If the motor seems to speed up when the magnet retracts or "kicks out" it's a classic symptom of a bad Bendix. A low battery can do the same thing.

It is possible that when you cleared your fuel lines and then tried to restart it the battery had enough charge to turn the engine a few times before getting so low that the motor would still turn but not enough to engage the magnet. The engine had not turned enough to pump enough fuel through the system to get her to start.

I know it's a long shot, but charge the battery up full and give it another try. If your tank fuel screen is clean, the filter and lines are not clogged, the fuel pump is working, and the float actuated fuel needle is not stuck closed or clogged, then she should be feeding fuel into the cylinder. It just takes a few turns of the engine to feed enough fuel into the system and all the way to the cylinder. It just might be that it isn't turning enough rotations before the charge runs low.

[futureian 0]

Thanks everyone and in particular Jim.

Funnily enough over the summer I had to recharge the battery say once a month. Previously I had read a few posts from other members that led me to believe that this was not unusual and so didn't think much about it (other than thinking I was going to buy a new battery for next season). If I didn't recharge the battery the engine would turn but would not start. Eventually the battery would be flat. I would then charge it and the engine would fire into life in only a couple of turns of the engine (and as you suggest the engine would be turning over more quickly whilst trying to start it). This makes me think that your theory on the starter makes sense. The battery was charged up a couple of days ago after I flattened it at the weekend trying to start the engine. I will connect it up on Sunday and see what happens.

So when the engine stops turning and I hear something else spinning around is this the magnets trying to push out the flywheel?

I don't think this has any relevance but I'll mention it. The lights on the tractor don't work. The guy I bought it from said that they worked when he had it but he never used them since they drained the battery. It seems strange that a light arrangement for the tractor would be designed in such a way that they are not practical to use.

If I need to get a new starter are they easy to source? What does it look like and where is it? Can I see the drive gear pushing out when I turn the key? I note that Micah says I should see the starter spinning.

Anyway, enough questions for one post.

Thanks again, it is great to get so much advice so quickly.

Ian

[stevebo-(Moderator) 8,330]

Ian,

If your fuel filter is full (clear see through kind) then that means it is dirty and should be changed. If there is little to no fuel around the filter then it is clean. I know this as I just changed mine and thought the pump was not working however after speaking with the local toro dealer he said the filter is working and the pump is pumping. Hope this helps. I gave up on mine and brought it to the dealer for a full service. I can't afford to have a snowstorm and not be able to fire up my machine to plow. Nothing sucks worse than working on a tractor in a snowstorm... Good luck- :hide:

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,300]

I don't think this has any relevance but I'll mention it. The lights on the tractor don't work. The guy I bought it from said that they worked when he had it but he never used them since they drained the battery. It seems strange that a light arrangement for the tractor would be designed in such a way that they are not practical to use.

Ian

Hmmm. If the lights drain the battery........and your constantly charging the battery, maybe the charging system is not working.

Mike......

[MaineDad 85]

As Jim said, the starter has drive gear that pops in and out to engage the flywheel. My neighbor's WH did the same thing, you could hear it spin because the starter's drive gear was not going back in towards the flywheel. You can actually see it in this case spinning. His fix was a new battery. The acid pouring from his old beat up battery was my first clue :hide:

[futureian 0]

Managed to get out this afternoon to connect up the battery. I disconnected the hose between the fuel pump and the carb and turned her over. Fuel was coming out in pulses (I assume that is how it should be?). I then connected the hose back up and turned the key. She started! So basically this is the way it has been all summer. After a few weeks of normal use - (once a week for 2 hours) she turns over but won't start. I turn the engine over using varying positions of throttle and choke and then the battery is flat. I charge the battery up and away she goes. I had a look at the starter and I can't see any moving parts.........so I'm thinking it doesn't have a bendix starter? I have included a few photos which might help.

Anyway, I'm thinking that it is either the battery, starter or rectifier (alternator?). What's the next step?

I took some photos and uploaded them onto photobucket but I am unsure what to do to make them accessible on the site........

Thanks

Ian

[futureian 0]

Here's a photo..........not sure if this is the right way to do this.......

Engine/starter/battery

Ian

[KyBlue 655]

Non clickable Photo

[MaineDad 85]

IS that a new battery?

[bambooheels 0]

wow, you guys are engine heads? never never never use starting fluid in a small engine period...... and sea foam is a joke... good lord! just empty the tank clean the screen or replace, replace fuel line just becasue you should and put a new filter on there. total time 20 minutes total costs #10.00 or under. never seen so much complication from guys taht are suppossed to know there machines. simple engines, simple answers. and please dont get all hostile replying everyone!!! common sense and knowledge tells you to never use starting fluid, and sea foam will not rid this man of the problem at hand. always fix the problem dont just throw a bandade on it

[oldandred 15]

hummm ive been using starting fuild for about 40 years and never had a problem with any thing none what so ever

one just has to know how to use it

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,300]

never seen so much complication from guys taht are suppossed to know there machines. simple engines, simple answers.

How is disconnecting the fuel line from the fuel pump to the carb to verify that the fuel pump is pumping to complicated? Is that what you mean by a complicated answer?

So what would you say after he did your $10 fix and there was still no gas to the carb.

Mike........

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,300]

and please dont get all hostile replying everyone!!!

And just what kind of responces are you expecting with a post like that?

Mike........(yep, ya pissed me off in case your wondering)

[bambooheels 0]

well i guess i got everyones attention, no fuel in fuel filter would indicate to me no fuel getting there, dont need a pump for fuel to get there. starting fluid for 40 years sure indicates to me you arent much with engines if you need it that much your engines are junk! i have 100;s of engines here and i never need starting fluid. plain and simple its not good for an engine, if you want to argue that point you can, and knowing how to use it makes no sense whatsoever! its like saying i use cocaine, but i know how to use it! its not good for you period. but im sorry sparky if you want to make it complicated you can, im a mechanic small engine mechanic and i just dont see the reason in fixing something the hard way, but then again, maybe you and oldred can just spray some starting fluid in the engine and burn her up, that way we can just tell him to buy a new one!

morones

[kj4kicks 151]

well i guess i got everyones attention, no fuel in fuel filter would indicate to me no fuel getting there, dont need a pump for fuel to get there. starting fluid for 40 years sure indicates to me you arent much with engines if you need it that much your engines are junk! i have 100;s of engines here and i never need starting fluid. plain and simple its not good for an engine, if you want to argue that point you can, and knowing how to use it makes no sense whatsoever! its like saying i use cocaine, but i know how to use it! its not good for you period. but im sorry sparky if you want to make it complicated you can, im a mechanic small engine mechanic and i just dont see the reason in fixing something the hard way, but then again, maybe you and oldred can just spray some starting fluid in the engine and burn her up, that way we can just tell him to buy a new one!

morones

All bow down to the great and powerful oz....

BTW, it's "Morons" not Morones