Wheel Horse Identification Project

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I've bought "Straight From the Horse's Mouth, The Wheel-Horse Story", read a ton of online info, joined the yahoo groups, downloaded IPLs, manuals, brochures, read most of the forum chats, viewed and collected, sorted hundreds of pictures and tried to build a database of info about WH garden tractors.  Overall I think I've collected a lot but I fear only scratched the surface and am no where near ready to write the "Wheel Horse Encyclopedia", nor do I even think I ever will be, but, I do want to know more.  Assuming that I haven't just overlooked the "Encyclopedia of ALL that is Wheel Horse" and that I'm not the only one interested in how to tell just by looking what model and year all these wonderful machines are where do I go next?  I have:
AA Wheel Horse ID list 1955-84
WheelHorseAllYear
All the WH brochures I can find...
WH Attachment Interchange 1955-2000

I know there are folks that know far more about WHs than I ever will but I see only little tidbits for how to identify certain Wheel Horses here and there.  In depth, accurate, definitive, detailed info but only about specific models and years.  Nothing really covering all WHs.  I know it would be a huge undertaking to pool all that is known about WHs but it seems like there either must be something more out there that I've missed or we should try to pool what we can!  And I'm not really talking about ALL that is known, just ALL that is necessary to ID them!  Not fix, or what parts will interchange, just tell what they are.  Many are missing tags, lots covered in rust, partially hidden in the weeds, some in pieces and several built from pieces.  It would be so nice to drive past an old timer, turn back around and positively ID it without having to climb a fence and search for a tag, chase down the owner or post it online and hope someone how knows will see it and help.

Perhaps I've just overlooked something?  I hope so!  If not, perhaps we could take just a bite at a time approach.  Perhaps cover just the 1950s and save it in a file for all to review, correct, update and finally use. Then maybe tackle the 1960s...

What years/models:
had the gas fill hole offset from center?
used an aluminum tank mounted above the dash
had a straight bar axle?  Upward swept axles? High clearance, inverted "V" axle? 
cast iron grilles
round hoods
3 point hitches
electric powered
Clinton engines?  Kawasaki engines?  Renault engines?
Short frames, mid frames, long frames?

A lot of this could simply be added to the existing spreadsheet, in fact I've started already and added some info, but I'm missing most of the knowledge!  I know there's folks that can ID most but how can we share that knowledge better?  Thoughts?  Ideas?

Thanks!
Dennis Thornton
 

Edited July 24, 2015 by DennisThornton
Changed title

[stevasaurus 22,705]

OK Dennis...I am by no means an expert on Wheel Horse tractors, but I feel your pain.  If there is one thing that this site lacks, it is the ability to pull up good pictures of horses with an explanation of what is different between the years.  Case in point...on the main page we have "Picture Gallery" and the sub-category, "Wheel Horse Picture Horse Gallery"  For the most part you can go in there and identify a horse...the problem...I think through the up-grades and from the old "Forum-er Site" a ton of pictures have been lost.  Another thing that never happened...the folks that posted these horses only posted maybe one shot (usually the left side) when it would be helpful to show at least 4 pictures showing all sides of the horse.  This could be my next project...delete the worthless posts that have no pictures and set it up to have pictures, of every horse that is correct...and if it is not correct...why not.  We could go to the members that did have posts in there and see if they want to offer up those pics again.  What do ya think??

On a serious side...if you do this...a new member can go into this section...identify his horse and never post anything.  In other words, if you have all the information available...you lose the back and forth that so many of us love here on Red Square...that includes the banter.  Personally,  I think it would do us all a favor to clean up the Wheel Horse Picture Gallery...I think that Brrly1 even started a thread concerning this.  Understand that this could become a huge undertaking with a bunch of knowledgeable members weighing in on what is correct and not.  If I had the admins blessing on this, I already have some ideas on how to go about this...you have brought up something that , I know, a few of us have been thinking about.    I was looking for something to do.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I love forum interaction!  In fact, I've been doing it before the Internet.  I'm guessing creating the WH Encyclopedia would generate a TON more forum activity than right now and even after/if the WH Encyclopedia were published I think forum activity would go on fine, just perhaps less about "What is it?".  Or at least it wouldn't be about a common WH.  Of course after the "Tractors" are done we'd need to do the "Attachments"! <grin>  Lot's of forum banter I think!

Absolutely correct!  Pictures with accurate Year/model names for each WH made should be doable an a GREAT asset to IDing!  Surely most are owned by the members or their friends.  If the admins can create the basic guidelines and webpage arrangement of photo slots then members could upload and the rest of the members comment, confirm or correct.  I'd love to see some way of approving them, maybe similar to "Like"ing but rather "Agreed!" or "Correct!"  vs "Incorrect!).  Something like that anyways.  I'm filing my downloaded collection of photos, brochures, IPL and manuals chronologically by decades and then by year with each model having it's folder.  I think that's handier for ID purposes than having all manuals in a folder elsewhere, which could still be done with links or actual copies elsewhere grouped anyway anyone wants.  But for me, everything goes in by year.  If it pertains to several years then by decade, if several decades then it just goes into /Wheel Horse.  My text database is different with Wheel Horses by Model, A, Bs, etc, then 200s, 300s, etc, Round Hoods, GTs and so on. Really anyway anyone would want if the data is in a spreadsheet. In just a few minutes I used the existing spreadsheet to sort on engines.  Briggs for example:
B&S
1955-56
1971-72
1974
1976-84
Now that's assuming that the info in the sheet is correct, that I sorted and counted correctly (I think I did!).  Most anything we would want to track could be added to the spreadsheet.  Just need the info and folks to confirm it. Oh:
Kohler
1955-2004

So YES!  Please?  You said you were looking or something to do!
Thanks!
Dennis Thornton

1964    654
1972    Raider 8
1977    C-160 
1978    C-81
1981    C-85 
1984    GT-1100
1987    310-8
1993    416H
1998    520lxi
1990    Husqvarna GT160
1978    Sear Suburban GT/16
1995    Simplicity Broadmoor 16 Twin
Not all are complete and working...  Yet!

[stevasaurus 22,705]

I was kidding when I said I was looking for something to do.    I also realize, and I do not think we are alone here, this needs to happen.  I would start with RJ's and work up through the horses.  Once we get going, information could be instilled in threads and then moved into the final analysis.  We happen to have a bunch of members that are extremely knowledgeable with certain eras of the horses.  If we could get their expertise and pictures, we could actually make this Wheel Horse Encyclopedia and incorporate it into the Wheel Horse Pictures Gallery on the main page...with pictures from all angles with explanations of what is right and what sometimes happens when they wanted to use up parts...like the Clinton engine in the 400 Suburban.  What does everyone think here.  I would like to see some ideas from the members and I can talk to Karl to see if he wants to help set this up.    This is going to take some time.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I hear ya!  I have NO business adding another task but I'm quite interested in this.  I'm 63 and I recently walked with a 70 year old gent through his woods with his trees growing up through tractors!  I hope he lives to be over a 100 but he will still die with tractors in the woods and take a lot of knowledge with him when he goes.  Each year the local Antique Tractor shows have less attendance.  Fewer members!  Certainly this project will take time but we have some.  Some!

Some members will know most everything about something.  That's all we need!  Just get some exposure to those folks willing to share a bit, and I bet that's most, and we'll have INFO!  Then we need a place to put it.  For a start I'll offer to add what I can to my spreadsheet and be happy to share it but eventually we would need a master/official spreadsheet or similar.  I can do the same with photos!  (Trust me, any well documented quality photos that hit this site are going into my collection anyway! <grin>) but at least that way if this site is not ready just yet we can begin to collect and sort.  But perhaps what we need is easily and quickly done here?  I hope so!

And, yes!  You and I are not alone!  If we are I'm really counting on you!  

I think starting with the RJs is fine!  Anywhere really.  But if we start at the beginning there's fewer models per year and should be easier.  Plus, doesn't everybody love the little ones!

Dennis

[stevasaurus 22,705]

At least we are almost the same age  (65)...I threw his up in the shout box and I will talk to Karl about this...let's see what kind of reaction we get for a few days.    If there is some interest in this, i do not see why we can not do this...the expertise is certainly here...I say let's try to do this...it will certainly up me average on guessing "what horse do I have"...    Dennis, let's give this a few days and see what we get for responses. 

[Racinbob 11,039]

I'm liking this idea a lot. Having been on Wheel Horses since 1o960 I'll add what I can. I agree with starting with the RJ's. One year at a time and well organized and ultimately having everything in order in a section dedicated to this. Since I'm so much younger than you two my youthful enthusiasm might help out.........

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I'm liking this idea a lot. Having been on Wheel Horses since 1o960 I'll add what I can. I agree with starting with the RJ's. One year at a time and well organized and ultimately having everything in order in a section dedicated to this. Since I'm so much younger than you two my youthful enthusiasm might help out.........

Very pleased to see almost instant response!  I think it will go well.  Take some time but as long as it is progressing that's fine!  I've notified another enthusiast and perhaps you will spread the word as well.  I think Baerpath has redirected his interests more into pulling but I think he would be a great assistance as here!  Plus many, many more members I've not even had the pleasure of chatting with!

And not to hint that this whole project is too big, because it's just big, not TOO big, but if we only finished the RJs it would be a nice accomplishment and a fine addition to this site!

And if you know of other sources and more info that would help, well please share now!

Let's do it!

Dennis Thornton

[953 nut 55,051]

  Steve and I have both attempted to assist people identify their new acquisition using the Wheel Horse standard numbering system only to find out this particular horse is an exception to the rule. This would be an interesting project, we might want to attempt to determine approximate production numbers by soliciting input on highest and lowest serial numbers for each model. We will never get an exact count but may be able to come up with a reasonable number.

[wallfish 16,981]

The easiest way to ID any Wheel Horse tractor.....

Just post a thread here on RedSquare about the tractor with a pic or two and... Woolaa --- You will get all the information you need. Doesn't get any easier than that!


RJs and Suburbans has already been done, I'll find the list and things to look for about them and post it here when I do.
 

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I'm noticing more and more often that there's a lot of "exceptions".  I read that Elmer Pond was very frugal and I guess the trait helped build the company and perhaps create some of those exceptions by carrying over last years parts, getting volume deals and changing mid model year and so on.  But I'm going to look at those "exceptions" as interest generators!  Makes all this so much more intriguing!  Just when you've found the rule it gets broken.

But it will make for some challenging ways to try to categorize things!  Hard to group everything if each is an exception!

Please though, your knowledge could be put to much greater use if it were organized here online!  Will you join in?

Thanks!
Dennis Thornton

[DennisThornton 4,769]

The easiest way to ID any Wheel Horse tractor.....

Just post a thread here on RedSquare about the tractor with a pic or two and... Woolaa --- You will get all the information you need. Doesn't get any easier than that!


RJs and Suburbans has already been done, I'll find the list and things to look for about them and post it here when I do.
 

 I agree!  And actually perhaps the very best way!  Great after dragging something home!  But that's just not always possible...  Can't always get a picture.  Sometimes there isn't time.  Trying to buy something and not quite sure what it is.  I think we need both online experts and a database.

A quick look at your herd tells me you would be a ton of help!

Dennis Thornton
 

[KC9KAS 4,741]

Dennis, you have a wonderful idea. Looking forward to seeing what you (and other WH guru's) come up with.
I think most will still visit here on the forum...I certainly will, but I would also like to know more about my machines without having to ask a specific question.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I'm liking this idea a lot. Having been on Wheel Horses since 1o960 I'll add what I can. I agree with starting with the RJ's. One year at a time and well organized and ultimately having everything in order in a section dedicated to this. Since I'm so much younger than you two my youthful enthusiasm might help out.........

Just took a look at your herd and also noticed how much younger you are!  Yeah!  We need some youngster to carry on when us old folks are gone! <grin>
I also see that you will be a great source of info for this project right after the RJs are done!  Suburbans next I suppose!  By the way, I just dragged home a sister to your favorite, a 654.  Needs a lot of work but restorable.

Dennis, you have a wonderful idea. Looking forward to seeing what you (and other WH guru's) come up with.
I think most will still visit here on the forum...I certainly will, but I would also like to know more about my machines without having to ask a specific question.

Thanks!  Someone or group already spent a ton of time on the AllYearsWheelHorse spreadsheet.  Tremendously helpful!  I'd love to give credit if I only knew!  I just hope to add to it and help start a photo database to support it.  And certainly there's far more to this group's forum than just IDing photos one at a time.

Thanks and please help with what you can!

Dennis Thornton

[DennisThornton 4,769]

The easiest way to ID any Wheel Horse tractor.....

Just post a thread here on RedSquare about the tractor with a pic or two and... Woolaa --- You will get all the information you need. Doesn't get any easier than that!


RJs and Suburbans has already been done, I'll find the list and things to look for about them and post it here when I do.
 

Man!  Did I at first miss:
"RJs and Suburbans has already been done, I'll find the list and things to look for about them and post it here when I do." 

That's awesome!  Then all we need is to organize photos depicting every RJ and Suburban!  Hopefully good close ups of the distinguishing details!

I think we're off to a great start!

Thanks so much!
Dennis Thornton
 

  

Steve and I have both attempted to assist people identify their new acquisition using the Wheel Horse standard numbering system only to find out this particular horse is an exception to the rule. This would be an interesting project, we might want to attempt to determine approximate production numbers by soliciting input on highest and lowest serial numbers for each model. We will never get an exact count but may be able to come up with a reasonable number.

I just took a look at your herd!  Man are you going to be a lot of help!  Sounds like the RJ and Suburban projects will be finished ahead of schedule thanks to wallfish or John.  Then the early 60s.  You got lots of photos?

Dennis Thornton

[fireman 1,021]

The bottom line is it takes time. When I first got into collecting I emersed myself in it. Researching everything I could find. Downloading every picture I could find. Downloading every document about them. It actually consumed me. Going to show after show and speaking to whoever I could. There are a bunch of guys on here that really know a lot of the history and really intricate quirky back story on Wheel Horse Tractors. Seek the out and pick their brains!

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,300]

  I've often thought about going thru the pic gallery and deleting all the "empty" posts. Many pics posted thru a host site such as Photo-bucket get lost if the owner moves his gallery around within Photo-bucket. The link is broken and the pic is lost.
  Its a massive chore to just delete those posts, not a one man task.
  But we still need a place for those "incorrect machines" (most of mine are incorrect).
I cant speak for the whole Admin/Moderator team but I like where this could go.
Mike..........

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I've run into several dead links, maybe not so much here but certainly during my WH knowledge quest.  Perhaps even worse is a good link to a bad (incorrect!) picture and me not knowing it's wrong at the time!

After about 30 years I do know something about computers but not much at all about running a website like this so perhaps you will forgive me if I ask for the impractical or seem to expect hours of work at the drop of the hat.  Mostly I'd just like to see what people know about Wheel Horses documented, organized and saved where it can be shared for all.  Organized photos stored together to backup that data and actually show folks would be the crowning touch!  Seems like this site would be the idea venue!  But again, I have no idea what needs to be done behind the scenes to accomplish that!

Mike, I'm very glad that you see promise in this idea!

Thanks for your current considerations in advance for any help!

Dennis Thornton

[DennisThornton 4,769]

The bottom line is it takes time. When I first got into collecting I emersed myself in it. Researching everything I could find. Downloading every picture I could find. Downloading every document about them. It actually consumed me. Going to show after show and speaking to whoever I could. There are a bunch of guys on here that really know a lot of the history and really intricate quirky back story on Wheel Horse Tractors. Seek the out and pick their brains!

Time indeed!  I wouldn't want anyone other than other collectors/enthusiasts to know how much time I've put into this already!  Only they would understand!  However, I don't believe that each of us has to go through the same learning curve if we all share.  I've learned a lot compared to just a year or so ago, but I'm a complete newbie compared to others here!  What I would hope to add is some spark for others to share their vast knowledge and get it put somewhere it will last forever and to share with all.  It would be a chance for you to help justify all the time you spent and help keep me and so many others from spending SO much time!

I know that it would be a huge project to get it ALL, but we don't have to do it all at once.  Just one bite at a time.

Dennis Thornton

[stevasaurus 22,705]

Holy cow!!!  I go to bed and come down to find all this going on.  Dennis, we already have excellent people behind us...out standing. 

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Yes!  I'm pleased!  I tried to get back to each responder to thank them as well.  I think this is going to happen somehow and hopefully right here real soon, at least the early years.  Looks like we can cover at least the data for all the RJs and Suburbans right off the bat!  Then I bet the early sixties will move along nicely as well!  And really, I think that's just where we should be focusing and where the most interest is.

So, what's next?

Dennis Thornton

[stevasaurus 22,705]

We talk and I'll get a hold of Karl.  Sent you a PM. 

[wallfish 16,981]

[Racinbob 11,039]

Good info on the RJ's and Suburbans. To add a little to that the transmissions were basically the same but different. The RJ58/59 used a 5003 and the Suburbans used a 5010. The difference was the angle of the mounting tab for the brake band. A 'geometry' thing since the idlers worked in opposide directions. The RJ's pushed the back of the drive belt to tension and the Suburbans lifted the inside. Also the 551 had the first 2 piece transmission case (5007). Here's another copied post from a while back:

1955/1956 --Both years used single-piece channel frames, and a belt-drive system with "POND" stamped on the rear axle.  RJ-25 came with a Briggs Model 8 (?)[2.5hp], while RJ-35s came with a Kohler K-90 [4hp], or Clinton B-1200 [3.6hp].  Both years used a simple grill, with no name or extra designs added.

1957 --Nearly identical to the previous two years, but without the option of the Briggs engine and the Wheel Horse name was added to the grill.

1958/1959 --RJ-58 and RJ-59 used a "new" 3-piece uni-drive transaxle [Model 5003], as well as a "new" welded angle-iron frame. The Clinton model engine changed to the model B-1290 --which was still a 3.6hp engine.

(All to this point use a straight, iron front axle and carry the RJ designation.) 

1960 --Model 400 and 550 introduced, using the same frame as the '58/'59 tractors and using a cast-iron "swept" axle.  The tractors also used a similar trans, the model 5010.  A Kohler K-91 [4hp] or Tech/Lauson(?) Model H55B-1170 [5.5hp] was available.  More designs were added to the hood and grill in this year. 

1961 --The model 401 was virtually the same as the '60 400 --only a model-year newer.  The throttle was changed to a push-pull style knob.  The 551, on the other hand got a trans upgrade, to the "new" 2-piece unidrive transaxle and was available with a Tech/Lauson(?) Model H55D-2113 [5.5HP] --an electric start engine.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Racinbob

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Thank you "wallfish"!  I think our first step is to gather info like your fine post!  Maybe I can help somewhat by running it through an OCR:
____________________________________________________

So You Think You Have an RJ

 

Here's a brief list of ways to ID your tractor. First I'm assuming

that the engine is mounted just it front of the seat since you think you

have an RJ.

 

1955-57 RJ23/35:  Frame made of a steel channel either fabricated from

sheet metal or structural channel. Belt driven and the gear case on the

rear has Pond cast in it. The RJ25 had a Briggs model 8 and the RJ35

had a Clinton or a Kohler K90.

 

1958-59 RJ58/59:  Frame made from 2" hot rolled angle (as is still made

today]. The front axle was the same as the RJ23/35 which was

fabricated from steel bar stock. The engines used were the Clinton or a

Kohler K90 or K91. The uni-drive transaxle was introduced with 3

speeds forward on one reverse.

 

1960-61 Suburban 400/401 and 550/551:  Same frame and transaxle as

the RJ58/59. The main difference is the front axle which is made from

cast iron and the throttle and choke controls. The 1960 400 has two

levers side by side and the 1981 401 has the push-pull type controls.

The 400/401 were 4hp with a Kohler K91 and the 550/551 had e 5.5hp

Lawson.

 

Tim in MI. _
_________________________________________________________

Now anyone can copy and paste into their notes.  Would you please take a moment and confirm that I didn't miss any errors?

An interesting side note from the "Straight from the Horse's Mouth.." was that the RJs used in Spain were suffering from broken "front cross members" (axles) and Cecil Pond flew there, saw what was happening and the new style cast axles began replacing the straight bars.

Also, from my notes, and please add or correct if needed:
The new style cast axle was quite swept upward keeping the center low.  This style axle was used on all the Suburbans, 1960 400s, 550s, 1961 401, 551 EXCEPT the 701 which had quite the opposite high clearance inverted "V" axle.
The three digit nomenclature's first digit indicated the models horsepower, the second digit whether it had electric start or not and third the year made.  551 was a 5 hp with electric start made in 1961. This nomenclature continued through 1967 with some exceptions.

Now I think it would be nice if we had an RJ Photo gallery dealing just with RJs and a Suburban gallery with just Suburbans unless some other pictures were used to show the specific differences.  While there is some separation in the gallery I'd love to see year by year and then even model by model.  I have that arrangement on my desktop and I love it for quick references!  I also include everything that pertains to a model year including manuals, brochures, attachments and really anything that pertains to that model year. Since I've started that I've noticed some chronological progressions that only then made logical sense to me.

The RJs were referred to as Ride-Away Jr.s.  There had been an earlier 1948-1956 Pond Ride-Away Sr. and the Wheel Horse 2 wheeled tractors eventually were called Walk-Aways.  While I've seen a WH manual use "Suburban" to refer to the 1960s it did not regarding 1961 or newer.  I'm curious of others have found "Suburban" specifically referencing any other year than 1960?

So how do we distinguish between the 1958 and 1959 RJs?

So we've got a great start on 7 years of "Round Hoods" with 5 more to go?

Thanks again "wallfish"!

Dennis Thornton