854 - 8 Speed Transmission Rebuild

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

I was hoping to put an 8 speed transmission on my 854 mostly for the limited slip diff, but it would be nice to have low range every once in a while. Before I knew anything about the differences in transmissions (input shaft/pulley size especially) i happened upon a pretty trashed 867. The transmission shifted smoothly into all the gears and I got it for a song (was at the persons house 3 hours after listed on CL!) so the adventure began.



I learned after the fact that this was an excellent bit of luck as it was the only year of 8 speed to have the right input pulley to match up to the engine pulley on my 854!

Got the rest of the 867 dealt with a few months back and never had a chance to really take a look at the transmission until tonight. I knew that one hub was welded on the axle and the other was busted up so I preemptively bought good used replacement axles and I have hubs from a C-165 I can use.

Ground off quite a bit of really ugly weld, had to bite into the hub and axle a fair amount.


Broken hub (with a leaky seal behind it, maybe an early attempt to replace?)


Got both hubs off without too much effort... Well the axle keyways look... perfect.. what!? Lets check the hub...


WTH!? Keyway is also nearly perfect... whoever welded this was a nutcase. I had to ruin the hub and axle to remove it.


Was this a setscrew originally? Looks a bit cobbled.


I had mixed in a bit of pure methanol to clean out the oil... Dumped out a gallon of mostly water. No oil to be found.


All setup on my 'work station' ready to be torn into.


To Be Continued...

[stevasaurus 22,739]

Looks like you got your 10 pinion, limited slip tranny.  Nice write up and great pictures. 

[Racinbob 11,081]

An 854 with an 8 speed. I'm lovin this!

[MikesRJ 552]

Looks like you got your 10 pinion, limited slip tranny.  Nice write up and great pictures. 

GOD, I love it when he talks that way! LOL

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

So I finally broke into this tonight. Came apart with ease, which was surprising for a 48 year old tractor. I THINK the gears look REALLY good:








Which is awesome. The pros will have to take a look and let me know if they see anything that I dont. But I was impressed with how it looks for its age!

THEN i found this:

Of course I would loose a 1533 and the needle bearing at the end of the axle. I dont have a press or anything and I was hoping to not have to dig into bearings. Everything was spinning smoothly, or so I thought.

The other side doesnt look too bad, the brake shaft needle bearing might be a bit stiff.


Thoughts?
 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2015 by bmsgaffer

[stevasaurus 22,739]

The transmission gears do all look real good.  All of the needle bearings will tap out with a good brass or steel punch...some times, I can pop them out with the right size 1/2 drive socket and an extension  (put the extension in the socket from the inside...ie...use the back of the socket as an arbor).  I have had luck popping out the #1533 bearing with an air chisel...hit the trigger once and she pops right out.  They do make a bearing puller that you may be able to buy at someplace like Harbor Freight....we have some threads on the puller.    Mike (racinfool40) does have good, used #1533 bearings...and he will sell you one if that is all you need.  Send him a PM.
Open up that 10 pinion differential, ya big chicken!!    Looks like you have the aluminum caps differential.    If there is anything that is not good in that trans...it is in the differential.  Don't forget to replace those nuts when you put the differential back together.

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

Haha, hey now! I hit my bedtime and I was done playing in 40 year old gear sludge for the night!

I will break into the diff. Do you know what size bolts and nuts they are (I'm at work and cant measure) I will pick some up on my way home.

Did they make a steel cap 10 pinion? Should I see if someone has any steel diff caps while I'm searchin for parts?

Thanks @stevasaurus!

Edited August 14, 2015 by bmsgaffer

[stevasaurus 22,739]

Yes they did make that differential with cast (I think) cast caps (not turned)...has to do with identifying a year I think.  The aluminum ones are fine, just do not hit them hard putting them back together.  In the 10 pinion that I did a video on, that trans had a cast on one end and aluminum on the other...no doubt that some one was in there before me.  You do not have to change out the bolts, just the nuts...they are the nylon lock nut type...that is why.  5/16"  for sure...I am almost positive it is regular thread, not fine.    For sure...show us a picture of the spring. 

It took me awhile, but I finally found that information about the cap types.  This is from one of TT's posts some time ago.
Posted 8 Jan 2013 · Report post
___________________________________________________________________________________________

The 1257 has the bevel gear differential, which is often considered to be the weakest of all.

 

Some information purely from memory:

The 5060 and 5071 have the pinion shaft-mounted brake drum (closest to the axle tube)

The 5073 has the brake drum mounted on the countershaft like the newer 8 speeds.

 

The 5060 has aluminum differential end caps and the 5071 & 5073 have iron caps.

The 5060 does not have a dipstick but the 5071 and 5073 have dipstick holes at the top rear corner of the right case.

 

The axle lengths for the 10 pinion differential in the 6 speed is 11 3/4" and 12"

 

Given the above information, there should be no mistaken identity of the 5060 or 5071.

The 5073 looks similar to the newer 8 speeds on the outside, but some claim identification is possible by counting the differential bolts by removing the dipstick tube and looking through the hole in the case.

A 10 pinion differential has 5 through bolts while the 4 and 8 pinion units have 4.

Edited August 14, 2015 by stevasaurus

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

Thanks Steve!

I will look into it.

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

Finally had time to pop the diff apart (5 bolts, you would think it would take less than two weeks, yet here we are). And no, I have no plans on popping that spring ring out and making any futile efforts to replace it, all the diff gears look great .  Added some more detailed pictures of the gears. Do the gear experts still think all the gears and axles look good enough to reuse? I bought pretty nice spare axles in the spring, but I think the key ways on the existing ones are even nicer. Would you replace them or not (forgot to get pics of the replacements but they have less pitting but JUST slightly more worn key ways.

I am just going to order the 1533's from @racinfool40 Mike today if so and try to find some replacement needle bearings.



 

[racinfool40 202]

I wouldn't have a problem re-using any of those gears and the axles...a good clean up and back on the road!!
 

[Pullstart 62,878]

could you please explain the input shaft / pulley differences you were able to avoid by using the 867 transmission over any other model?

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

could you please explain the input shaft / pulley differences you were able to avoid by using the 867 transmission over any other model?

I will do my best! Michael Biser @racinfool40 helped me out with it a while back.

First off, the early tractors 1967 and earlier with 8hp or less had 2" engine pulley and 4" transmission pulley. Later tractors have a larger engine pulley and thus a larger transmission pulley (6.25"). 8 Speeds were only used with the small pulley for one year (1967).

4 speed transmissions have 3/4" input axle shaft. 8 speeds have 5/8" input axle shaft. So the pulley that is necessary for an 8 speed conversion on any early tractors was only available on 1967 tractors, but (i THINK) if you found the right pulley you could use any newer 8 speed.


So, really, as far as I know the only thing that was truly beneficial was that this transmission came with the right size pulley. When I put the rest of the 867 tractor up for sale for parts I had more than 10 people contact me about the pulley.
 

[Pullstart 62,878]

gotcha, so in theory a corrected engine pulley in 2:1 ratio might net the same results, but then the drive belt will all change size as well.  thank you for the clarification!

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

Oh and the belt profile on the older tractors is the smaller 1/2" i think, then they went to the 5/8 belt. I think! The biggest issue is fitting the belt in the original belt guard, which doesnt fit for anything bigger than a 2" pulley.

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

OK. I need some help.

The one 1533 bearing that was busted fell apart as I was trying to remove it. Now the outer race of the bearing is firmly planted in the transmission case and I cant seem to get anything of substance in behind it. How do I get it out?

Any ideas?

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,043]

Got an ark welder? Run a heavy bead around in the ball groove and when it cools the bearing will fall out.

Garry

Adding - The last couple I did I used a mig welder set at the high end. If the race turns red hot you got it right.

Edited October 8, 2015 by gwest_ca

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

Got an ark welder? Run a heavy bead around in the ball groove and when it cools the bearing will fall out.

Garry

Adding - The last couple I did I used a mig welder set at the high end. If the race turns red hot you got it right.

Welder! That big expensive thing I have on my shelf for occasions JUST like this...

I'm a relatively new welder owner and I forget the wide range of uses for this wonderful machine. I went right out to the garage, hooked up my trusty Hobart Handler 140, did just as you suggested (though I had to knock it down one from the highest setting as I was getting close to going right through) and after once around it just took a light pry from the bottom and POP, it came right out.

THANK YOU Garry!

Now there should be some more progress on this thing this week. Stay tuned! (although it is just really another transmission rebuild... )

[stevasaurus 22,739]

How about at least one picture just before you put the left side of the case on?? 

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

Oh I will get some pictures, but I don't even have it cleaned yet...

Projects move pretty slow at this point in my life...