Classic discontnued

[TT-(Moderator) 1,131]

I think their biggest mistake was not offering the Classic as a hydro with hydraulic lift. I won't ever condemn the gear drive tractors, but the hydros do make better grass cutters - especially if you have a lot of obstacles on your property.

I think I know what their marketing strategy is, but it still isn't right. It's kinda like the Maytag repairman deal -- Wheel Horses were SO reliable that no one really needed to keep buying a new unit every 5 to 7 years like MTD & AYP built machines. You can make a little money from parts, but nothing like you would by selling complete new tractors.

The reliability works two-fold too..... If these old girls wouldn't live as long as they do, guys like us wouldn't have the pleasure of gathering together to show them and constantly talk about them!

Did you ever hear of an MTD riding mower club, or a "national show" ?

I rest my case.

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,508]

I can agree you 100% on just about every point there. Why didn't Toro offered the "Classic" in with hydrostatic drive and hydraulic lift? It would have been a good idea and may have sold more tractors as buyers who were in that market bought JD's 3x5 series as all that JD line offered hydrostatic transmission, hydraulic lift and some even had power steering. If you noticed after the late '90's all of JDs garden tractors were hydros. If Toro had made the decision to make Classic GT's with hydrostatic transmission they could have competed better with JD, CC, etc. At least Toro kept the Classic GT's with 8 speeds.

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,299]

Really can't blame Toro here. An interesting poll would be "How many NEW Wheel Horses have you purchased? Toro is a business just like anything else. Many of the enthusiasts are buying old tractors, not new ones. Now I'm not criticizing anyone, but if demand for Classics are low and demand for ZTR is high, well it makes perfect business sense to me to discontinue the line as dissapointing as it is.

We all should have been buying more of these new, but the darn things last too long so we don't need new ones! I suppose that if my working tractor, the 416-H dies, it will be an Ingersoll for me, I like them a lot too!

just my 2-cents worth, no change given.

**edit** Topic split from the "What ya' oughta' do is .......," topic to keep that one on track, this subject could get big... :D

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,508]

Karl,

At least Ingersoll was bought up by Eastman Industries, who it seems have made a great effort to, not only continue the line, but add some improvements to it. Gotta agree with you, Karl, a new Ingersoll would be a wise investment.

[perry 82]

i thought about why they did'nt make it hydro also. but if you thinj about it , a classic wheel horse is a gear driven one that can handle anything you put it up against. the hydros are not rated or recommended for ground ingageing implements.

but yes i do agree that i love my little hydro for zipping around and plowing snow. maybe they should of offered the classic GT manual and then a ultimate cassic GT with hydro and all the bells anbd whistles.

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,508]

Perry,

You make some good points.

I guess, at least, that Toro didn't tell MTD to put "Wheel Horse" on these new ones that they're making for Toro. Now, that would be bad to have a MTD made Wheel Horse. :D

[Rollerman 290]

Well I'll chime in with my thoughts here.

Pretty much any garden tractor that was built in the same way "overbuilt to last" as the Wheel Horses....ie, cub, sears custom, etc,etc are dead or now come out of the MTD clone factory.

Yes Cub Cadet & others still exsist...but not like they were.

Case is mentioned hear too & JD put's out some nice equipment too.

But whats the price of a heavy duty garden tractor anymore?

Probably a LOT more than the average home owner is willing to spend...thats where the box store mowers hit there nitch.

A lot of people to these days spend there money on a lawn care service to as aposed to there own equipment.

Then I'd say most commercial users or large property owners opt for a "CUT compact utility tractor" Z turn, or front runner anymore...further divideing up a shrinking market

I can't condem Toro for discontinuing the Wheel Horse classics...yes it be great to see them still comeing out the door...but what was the price of a 2007 unit?

Probably more than I have in all my tractors!...not enough buyers to support the product.

As to why Toro didn't keep the hydro with lift on the classics?

They already had the Toro/Wheel Horse 520,522 XI versions out that were equipted with hydro, hyd lift, hyd ports, power steering.

I'm not sure what the price differance was at the time for the classic & the newer XI,XT models.

If I were a "real" buyer I would have looked into one of them if I wanted those features.

My thoughts though :D

[T-Mo-(Moderator) 4,508]

Stephen,

All valid points and also ones that I thought myself. But, JD's are still selling their higher end products, as well as their lower end LA series, and they are still selling almost all that they make.

It's true most consumers today want disposable equipment or want something like a Z-turn or sub-compact/compact utility tractor. But the Z-turns have limited capabilities and how many people have space for a big utility tractor. There's were the market is.

The 5xi's were a lot more money than the Classic Gt's, which were really competing more with the 260/270/4xx from Toro than the 5xi's. I see it as more up filling the different market or price levels. JD has been very successful making 2 different lawn tractor series, a GT series, a 3x5 or GX series, and then the 4x5 or X-700 series. It fills the different market and price levels. Then they started making the L-series (now the LA series) to meet the entry lever market where MTD and AYP were kings. Toro could have done the same thing with their MTD made line and then offered the Classic GT and 5xi as the consumer wanted to move up the scale (and they will after they got the taste of mowing their own grass and wanted something better).

Now, I'm probably wrong on a lot of this, but that's my take. (It wouldn't be the first time, nor the last time I was wrong). :D

[TT-(Moderator) 1,131]

But whats the price of a heavy duty garden tractor anymore?

Probably a LOT more than the average home owner is willing to spend...thats where the box store mowers hit there nitch.

That's the part that puzzles me.

I know of several people who have bought bigger MTD (Cub Cadet) or Sears/Craftsman tractors for about $1500 -$1800 and then complain in 3 or 4 years when they have to buy another new one again because theirs broke or wore out and "it would cost more to fix it than to buy a new one". Then it repeats in another 3 or 4 years. They despise everything from changing the attachments and performing routine maintenance, to trying figure out how to put on a new drive belt. One fellow I know actually has to get his wife to use an air hose on him (get yer heads outta the gutter! ) when he's done mowing because the deck throws all the grass up on him. I call him "Chia-Nevin". (get it? )

I understand that the majority of people no longer have time to put out a garden, and if they do, it's a lot smaller than the ones I remember in my past. We opened our garden in the spring with an 861 Ford Powermaster and a 3 bottom plow, and even worked the corn with the Super C's cultivators! My Pap's 1050 Bolens "raised" the potatoes in the fall. That was 30 years ago. Now my garden is just big enough to PARK those two tractors within the boundaries. The walk behind rototillers seem to be the choice of serious gardeners (I have one too ) and there are always people advertising that service in the spring. (around here, anyway)

I could go on and on (or did I already?) but will leave off of this for now. I have the tractor I love and actually enjoy using. (1990 416H) The only thing I might change about it would be the addition of a foot pedal for the direction control. You'd have an impossible time convincing me to own or use something else.

[Nick 13]

I might be wrong but at some point they had done away with the hydro transmission tooling. So later they couldnt bring it back into production even when dealers were asking for a Hydro classic. Thats what I heard anyway.

Might just be me but I never understood why the top of the line 520 didnt have power steering or a 2 range hydro transmission. Maybe they didnt think it was needed but it sure would have been nice for heavy work or just working in tight areas to have had a low range. And my dealer sold power steering kits that worked fine so other than cost that could have been done. I have not used the big xi much but the foot control hydro was easier to get use to than I thought. That would have been another nice addition to the classics along with the speed control lock.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,131]

Leave it up to corporate America to throw away more good stuff! Someone in accounting probably told them to dump the obsolete stuff for "X" amount of $ for a tax break or something.

Operating the 416 while mowing isn't bad -- left hand on the wheel / right hand on the DCL. If I actually get to a place where I can cruise along straight at higher speeds, I just hold the DCL with my knee. (did that on the 312A all the time too)

Using the snowblade is when I wish I had the foot pedal. The low range option would have been alright too, and I could find lots of reasons to use it.

Way back when , I had a 1256 Bolens. I really got used to the foot-controlled hydro freeing up both hands while pushing snow. It had hydraulic lift (with downpressure!) and you could move fast and really maneuver too. If it would have had a power angle blade, I would have married it!

I have plans of converting the 416 to foot control whenever I decide to tear it apart for new paint. I'm not spending $300 or $400 for a kit on ebay either -- I'll just make the parts I need, and hopefully it will work. :o

[Curmudgeon 28]

My turn!!!

Two points. With corporate america concentrating the wealth in the top 2% of the population, very few average "Joes" can now afford anything but a throw away. Who here can come up with 20 grand for a lawn mower? Nope, the Classic didn't cost that much, but it's design was established. Now everyone wants gizmos, cup holders, two speed hydros, etc. Put all that crap on, and you now have a tractor no one can afford except for the CEO's that don't mow their own grass anyway.

Second. To me "Classic" means classic, as in, the way they originally were. While the hydros did come into play relatively early on, manual shift is original. Think about guys, who here would want an "automatic" muscle car? Any purist worth his salt would get a four on the floor. That's my thinking, and I'd prefer the "four on the floor" in my Classic too.

Dale, with different ideas

[kpinnc 12,302]

There's another point to make here fellas. I still know the guy who ran the local Toro shop here until late 2006. He said the only people he could find regularly who would spend the big bucks on a machine as rugged as a classic were in the lawn care business. Those guys want Zero turns, or at least the machines that work the fastest.

More than ever now, people live in subdivisions on 1/3 or less-acre lots. Very few still have a large acreage to maintain OR work even a small garden on. Plus, as a whole, not many people fix their own machines anymore. They prefer a cheap little mower that they can haul away to the dump when it dies. It's both sad and kinda stupid, but true.

Personally, I wouldn't trade any of my Wheel Horses for 100 zero turns. Not saying I would never have one, but I simply prefer to drive my tractor around when I'm mowing, or whatever. Does it take me an hour and a half to mow the yard? YEP!, and it's one of the more rewarding chores I have.

Kevin

[WheelHorse_of_course 99]

Amen Kevin!

I don't *need* a tractor, but I sure am glad I have my horses!

[refracman 167]

heres my 2caents worth

when my c120s motor went south in 03 i was workin 6/7 days a week and 10 hrs a day and little time for workin on lawn equipment

i wanted another hydro and of couse a WH. so when i got to the dealer he had a 520, a 417xt and a 315 classic, the 520 was 6500, the 417 was 4200 and the 315 was 3700. all came with a 48 deck. so it came down to what the wife was goin to tolerate me spendin on a new one ( never havein spent more than 400 before )and which had hydro.

if the classic was a hydro i would of purchased it, my yard is 2 acres and full of trees so a stick isnt a option. and the 520 was out of the question ( the banker said ) so the 417 was my only choice.

my brother who also is a WH guy, when he bought new in 04 he got a Z and keeps his gt14 for plowin and rototillin only now

even then the dealer had 15 Zs and only the 3 tractors in the show room, he said then the writeing was on the wall for the WH brand, and he is in a rural location were most houses sit on at least a acre

it is sad that toro qiut makeing WHs,but will i ever buy new again ?, probably not but that is just a testament to the longevity

well i guess it tuned into a dimes worth

Steve