no traction

[skeptichorse 25]

I just purchased my first wheel horse a C141, the guy I got it from said he got it from an elderly man that had it sitting in his back yard, where it sat for 8 yrs with the deck, and 55 lbs wheel weights still attached, supposedly over the yrs it had sunk to the frame. 

The guy brought it home cleaned the points rewired it and cleaned the carb and said it fired right up.

Now I get it home and seems to be a barn find everything is there nothing appears to be missing (except the paint) , fires right up better than my newer machine, and on dry pavement in 3 hi if you dump the clutch it will try to buck you off.

But my main problem is now that once it is off dry pavement it barely moves.  It gets stuck constantly, I do have soft soil here thanks to all the rain.  Tonight I thought I would mow with my tow behind on it, and it either sunk or spun itself down to the point it wouldn't move in either direction in the process of trying to get it out it threw some nice rooster tails and covered me and everything else with mud, so it is getting power to the tires .  I ended up having to tow it out with the cub rider, and the cub didnt spin a tire towing both the horse and the tow behind still attached.  I then went back and mowed the same area with the cub without a problem so that tells me the ground wasn't too soft to be on.

When I got the machine back I stood on the left rear and it appeared soft and flexed.  when I tried it on the right rear it was hard as a rock.    I let air out of the right and added air to the left, and even after letting air out of the right side I could still stand on it and it wouldn't give at all and appeared crowned in the middle.    Now I am wondering if that tire may have hardened over time and even though it has decent tread is not getting traction because of it, or maybe it is supposed to be like that and the other one is too flexible. 

So before I invest money into tires I thought I would ask here to see if anyone may have an idea on why it is just not getting any traction. 

Thanks for any advice you can provide.


 

[snowmoboyle 33]

Thats just a wild situation - obviously it's getting power, you are bucking on pavement, and throwing mud.  It's more of a grip question - is the tread worn down, or that weak that it doesn't offer the grip the cub's tread does?  

[skeptichorse 25]

I think the tread is decent on the tires, and the cub has the little 8" turf savers on it nothing special about those and are original with the rider.

[snowmoboyle 33]

I'll be interested to hear what anyone else has to chip in - any pictures of the tire treads?

[slammer302 2,155]

i would think the wheel horse c-141 weight is alot more than the cub i've had to lug around a 14hp kohler and it almost killed my back i'm guessing all that weight on the front of the c-141 would make it sink in soft grass i think a new set of wide turf tires would help alot

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,300]

Old tires do harden up to the point where they don't flex which compromises traction. New tires (not used) should fix your issue. The less ply's the more flexible the tire. I would look for 2 ply or 4 ply, definitely stay away from a 6 ply or greater tire.
Mike........

[Don1977 604]

Is just one wheel spinning, check for a missing key in the other wheel hub. If some one had the transmission apart and put the all the pinion gears back the turned the same way it would only pull with one wheel. That's my best guesses as to what's wrong, it should pull in wet mud and drag the cub behind it.

[skeptichorse 25]

When I dump the clutch on dry pavement both wheels will spin, but just for a sec I know because of the stones on top of the pavement that get kicked up.  But when it gets in mud like last night, just the right rear was spinning, which I thought was odd not sure if these are locked differentials or slips.  I know nothing about wheel horses this is my first venture into them, can you tell me where to look for the key?  is it out side of the wheel behind the wheel weight or is inside the trans?  If inside it will have to weight I dont really feel like pulling and splitting that it looks like a project and a half.

[doc724 925]

Did you check the air pressure in the hard tire?  Old tires will get crowned.  As I recall (having been stuck many times in snow banks), once one tire slips, the other just stays there.  My solution to that dilems is to put it in low range, first gear, get off and push it!

[WNYPCRepair 1,910]

Is it possible that tire was filled with something? One of my customers fills tires with a material that basically turns them into solid rubber tires. 

[skeptichorse 25]

Doc, I tried... I soon realized it is more of a Mule than a horse when it is stuck... If it dont want to move ... you aint pushing it... lol  and unlike my cub there is NO picking it up by the seat pan and shifting it left or right.

[skeptichorse 25]

Think I may have found part of the problem.... I am pretty sure the left axle shouldnt slide out this far...  But even out this far if I spin either wheel the other one moves in the opposite direction.
I let all the air out of the right rear and stood on it and it did flex now so I am thinking that the guy may have had the tire way over filled and when I let some air out lastnight wasnt even close to enough.

[C-101plowerpower 1,605]

yep there's your problem, better fix that before the thing that holds the axle in gets to places where it isn't supposed to go

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

If you spend some time browsing around there are some VERY good threads and videos on rebuilding the 8 speed. Yours lost a clip that holds that axle into the differential. While you are in there you can find and replace any excessively worn gears or bearings that may be contributing to your traction loss.

You probably had the axle slide out on you when you were in the mud and that will disengage or jam it in the differential which will cause problems. However I think that your biggest problem is that you are trying to drive a 650lb + weights tractor where a 300-400lb tractor was light-footing it.

If the wet ground is common, then get some wider front and rear tires on it and it will help tremendously (and get AG tread or chains if you dont want to get stuck in the muck). The stock tires are fairly narrow.

Oh and they are NOT locked diffs, they are open.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,029]

Here is a parts list for your transmission
http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/2388-transmission-gear-uni-drive-6-forward-speeds-1125in-8-pinion-6g-103916-1978-1984-iplpdf/

Transmission service manual
Low resolution
http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/1385-transmission-gear-uni-drive-1958-1982-sm-lr-a-1392pdf/

High resolution
http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/358-transmission-gear-uni-drive-1958-1982-sm-hr-a-1392pdf/

If you go into the transmission section of the forum every aspect of these are covered.

Garry

[boovuc 1,090]

And I would lose the wheel weights except for winter snow removal.

When you crack that transmission case open, better be ready for some smells right out of a sewage treatment plant's primary hold tank! If it was sitting that long and as a C-series made many years ago, that rear end collected a lot of water. (The shift boots on most tractors that old are normally shot). Water and gear oil gives you a very pungent vintage of "snot" with age! Kind of like the first time you took a bathroom sink trap a part but without the hair! 

[skeptichorse 25]

ok so looks like the answer is to tear it down... with out opening it we cant know for sure what is going on in there but can anyone give me an idea what the cost would be?  It would just be material costs I would do the labor, looks like there would be enough support here if and when I get stuck.

My thought is that since the guy that sold it took the time to rewire it, but a battery in, new gas lines, and clean the carb.  then sell it I am starting to think he knew the rear end was in need of work and was going to cost more to fix than he thought it was worth.

I dont want to get 2-300 hundred into it, I still need to rebuild the deck.
 

[skeptichorse 25]

oh and I know about the smell, I have changed gear oil in my trucks before.  Plus when I got it the first thing I did was change all the fluids, and the rear end was creamy from the water, so I read on here where someone said to drain it and refill it with ATF and use it to help flush it out.  so I did that OUTSIDE, but the rags are still in my garage and that is all you can smell.  and I think the shift boot is non existent..I assume it rotted off yrs ago.

[ScottCT 15]

 I agree the transmission is your primary problem and if you don't want to get involved in rehabbing your transmission you might consider a good used one. They aren't real expensive and it's an easy swap. You still may want to look into more suitable tires too. I have hilly terrain and got a set of Carlisle turf masters for my 312 to fix my traction and stability problems while mowing. For towing my trailer with fire wood I have a set of ags on my C-121. Different tires make a big difference and the correct tire type for what your use of the tractor will be. I never liked the Carlisle turf savers, they are more like lawn slicks than anything else. Just my opinion....

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

For $2-300 you could buy an entire rebuilt transmission, so your parts cost is likely to be significantly less.

If the ONLY thing wrong is the clip on your axle then you may be out a couple bucks and a few hours of time. If the clip got chewed up in the gears or if you need to replace a few bearings then I would say $50-100 TOPS assuming it sounded smooth when spinning before.

To that end... DO NOT USE IT anymore until you tear it down for fear of that clip being caught up somewhere it shouldnt be.

If you get in there and the whole thing is trashed (unlikely, but possible), your cheapest bet would be to find any other 8 speed tractor on craigslist that shifts and rolls smooth and do a transplant and sell the rest off. Or you could poke around and see if anyone has one they already parted and are willing to sell.

[skeptichorse 25]

Well it is going to get rolled out of the garage and the transmission is on its way out...the way I see it is I cant use it so I might as well tear it down and hope for the best.  I have about $200.00 invested in it so far. $100.00for the machine, deck, $60.00 for a 33" single stage snow blower and maybe $40.00 in  fluids and materials to redo the deck ... so might as well.  Worst case scenario if the trans is too bad to rebuild and I cant find a donor for a decent price then I will have parts for sale.

Best case scenario I put another $50-$100 in it and I have a machine that serves me for years.  I went with a wheel horse because I am on my third rider I keep burning then up with all the mowing I have to do about 2-3 acres of flats and varying grades.  I have been told a wheel horse in good working order would endure anything I could do to it, from blowing snow to tilling my garden.

I dont recall ever hearing anything bad sounding in the rear end, when I had it moving so I am going to stay optimisitic until I open it up and see what is going on.  The only negative I ever noticed was every once in a while it would feel like a lobeing feeling, where it would feel like it was freewheeling then push again then free wheel and push again.  only occurs when going slow in first gear usually down a small grade.
 

[steve k 82]

I would look at the tires again once the trans is fixed.   If the the tread blocks have their edges rounded off from years of use it will not have much traction regardless how deep the tread is.  

[Callen 64]

Before you go any farther with it, pull the weights off and see if the end of the axle is flush with the outside edge of the hub. Looking at the pic above the one with the extended axle, both hubs are slid clear in against the housings which they shouldn't be. I suspect the hub is about to come off the axle since you said it still turns opposite as the other side even out that far. It should be out of the differential if it is out that far.

[skeptichorse 25]

Callen I hope you are right ..... I will try to pull those tonight... and I will post picts of what I find

[skeptichorse 25]

Ok Callen Lucky for me you were right.   I pulled the weight off and noticed I could stick my finger in the whole, so I gave the wheel a good tug and it popped right off almost knocking me over.  I ran my finger inside the hub and noticed that neither set screw were tightened enough to even feel them.  Lucky for me that it didnt fall off when my son was out riding it.

I pulled the hub off the wheel and tightened BOTH set screws as tight as I could get them.  then reassembled it and did a test drive in 3 Hi and held the wheel all the way to the left at full throttle.  Got a little sketchy at times, felt like the machine was on one rear wheel a few times. 

Then I tried some grades side ways to get the wheel to slip.  When I get it back in the garage,,, nothing no more than 1/8 of play on the axle..even with me pulling with my feet against the machine. 

So trans seems good ... so it appears I am back to it being a tire issue.