D Series Engine to pump coupler question

[pfrederi 17,874]

There are at least 2 Service Bulletins addressing the engine to pump coupler on D series tractor.

 

#217 from 1978 specified a kit (obviously NLA)It included a new mounting bracket but also a splined washer (#106641 NLA).  Also 4 washers #920008.  Research reveals the 4 plain washers are nothing but SAE5/16".  However I can't find any source (McMaster/Fastnal) that has splined washers.

 

The second SB from 1981still uses the new washers and splined washer,but instead of greasing the pump shaft and coupler (earlier SB procedure) you seal them with Loctite 680. Which I have coming.

 

Question?  Does any one have the splined washer or at least know what it looks like?  If I don't use one is there a risk???

[wheeledhorseman 574]

Paul

 

I guess this is the part which shows up on the later D-200 schematics.

 

 

#25 is the  part 106641 you mention.

 

I'm almost certain there's one of these on the D-200 I'm working on at the moment so I'm guessing the coupling has been replaced at some point in the past.

 

I can get some photos when I'm out at the shop tomorrow if you wan't. When I saw it my first thoughts were that it's either a spacer or there to keep gritty dust out of the splines. An earlier schematic shows an O ring for the same place but its not shown in bold outline like other parts as if it was optional perhaps.

 

Andy

[pfrederi 17,874]

Would appreciate the picture and if possible the thickness of the washer

[wheeledhorseman 574]

Here's the detail Paul

 

 

The washer is 3/16 thick and the splines have a bevel on the side that faces towards the pump. The measurement was using a tape as the battery in the vernier caliper appears to have gone flat over winter.

 

 

The other face is flat and you can see the bright surface where it touches the flange on the coupler,

 

 

A similar bright ring is on the coupler flange. The 'washer' (I'd call it a spacer) sits on the pump shaft pushed on as far as it will go. As far as I can tell there's no gap (end float) between the washer and the flange when the engine is mounted but I can't prove that at the moment.

 

The tractor is a '77 D-200 and the splined washer isn't shown on the assembly drawings for that year so I'm guessing the coupling has been replaced at some point.

 

The washer will certainly help to retain grease at the pump end and keep dust out if grease is used but I'm guessing (as a non-engineer) that it maybe more to do with reducing potential vibrational movement that caused the splines to wear. Also guessing that the Loctite 680 which is an adhesive I think was also to reduce this. Despite having the washer, mine was greased on the splines, if you use the adhesive how do you release it if you have to? Heat maybe?

 

Hope this is some use.

 

Andy

[pfrederi 17,874]

Andy:  As always Thank you.

 

About the shine on the washer and the coupling.  The should be moving at the same speed.  Only way I see movement would be slop in the splines mating or an angle difference between the coupler and the pump shaft.The SB talks about preloading the coupler, yet the coupler I took off was only worn about 7/8th of the way through..  the last 1/4" (maybe 3/16") was unworn.  Curious. You think the splined washer was to take out any slop between the units???

 

I wonder why WH didn't use a spider coupler with a rubber insert that is widely used in pump to engine hook ups.//?

 

 

[wheeledhorseman 574]

As I said, I'm no engineer but I'm guessing the shine on the two surfaces does as you say indicate some play in the spines and also some preload being applied to the rubber coupling but the actual degree of preload must be based on the thickness of the spline washer.

 

Are there any instructions anywhere as to how one is meant to get the pump as in line with the engine as possible? The whole mounting arrangement for the pump seems pretty hit and miss in that respect. I'm thinking that on my tractor the two probably weren't perfectly in line hence the shiny ring on the surfaces not being an even thickness round the whole circumference.

 

I'll try cleaning the surfaces for a closer look if I get to the shop today.

 

Andy

[pfrederi 17,874]

Andy:  The WH TSB from 1981 has you use a timing light hooked up to a different tractor to check the alignment.  if it appears "Fuzzy" (Their word) it is out of alignment.  I have the TSB hard copy I am looking for the electrons to send you.

[wheeledhorseman 574]

My original aim was to have the pump out of the D-200 by now but this thread has got me thinking and as a result I'm likely to do a far better job reinstalling the good replacement as a result. Electrons delivered said copies of the TSBs thanks Paul.

 

I managed to steal an hour from other duties to investigate things a little further.

 

 

Cleaning up the other face of the splined washer revealed shiny polished marks where there's been some movement between the washer and the end of the splines on the pump shaft. Conclusion: there must be some play here due to worn splines. Sure enough having cleaned everything up and put the coupler back on the pump shaft I could feel the play - not OTT but play nonetheless which would cause ever increasing wear if not kept in check.

 

To prove that the preload force, which effectively holds the coupler and washer firmly against the end of the pump shaft, overcomes this I hatched a plan.

 

 

The weakness in the original D coupler design appears to be that it was allowed to to float on the pump shaft splines rather than having a long enough shaft to sit snugly against the end of the pump shaft as is the case on a pulley driven pump. Having checked that a bolt and washer from a pulley drive would fit in the space (photo above) I used it to secure the coupler and spline washer to the pump shaft. As the bolt began to tighten (mimicking the preload) the play in the splines was taken up.

 

It occurred to me that when using the Loctite 680 on worn splines this would be a good way of ensuring that everything is held in correct alignment while it cures. I also wondered if there isn't any reason for not keeping the bolt and washer in place permanently.  (Thoughts?)

 

All this is of course fine for dealing with spline wear as long as you have access to the special splined washer so I thought about how one could make one. The easiest solution that came to mind was sacrificing a standard Sundstrand pulley.

 

 

It would require grinding out the welds that hold the pulley on the shaft then turning down the shaft on a lathe to achieve the correct diameter followed by parting off a 3/16ths slice assuming the tool will cut the hardened steel.

 

Andy

[pfrederi 17,874]

Andy:  One thing you want to make sure there is not too much pressure on the end (inward) of the pump shaft.  I will mock up your bolt idea tomorrow and see if I see any potential glitches. 

 

I like you idea for making a washer.  The OD in you pic looks similar to the hub shaft.  In any event i could always enlarge the hole in the pump bracket...which may be the difference between the original bracket and the modified one in the kit and on later models. Got new metal chop saw for Christmas which should cut the shaft.

 

As aways Thanks!!

[wheeledhorseman 574]

I managed a bit more work today and finally got round to getting the old pump off the tractor.  Tried the coupling on the pump that will be replacing it and discovered that:

 

Firstly, there about the same amount of play with the splines on that pump when the coupling is attached so checked this against the pulley originally installed on the pump which was similar despite the pulley having been secured by a bolt for its past life.

 

Secondly, by rotating the coupling I could see that the pre-load force must have, over time, diminished as the rubber coupling has become permanently deformed by it. I'm not sure how clear this is in the photo below which was taken on my phone (not good at closeups). Hopefully you can see the bulge towards the top of the white line.

 

 

My thoughts at the moment are to: a) use loctite on the splines as per the TSB and, b ) use the old pulley bolt and washer to secure the coupling as well. 'belt and braces' as we say over here.

 

Using Loctite on the splines will mean that in future the coupling will have to be unbolted from the engine before the engine can be pulled forward so using the pulley bolt as well won't create an issue that hasn't already been caused by using Loctite.

 

According to the Loctite 680 fact sheet, application of heat will be needed in future to separate the coupling from the splines on the pump. I think I'm going to try this out using the pulley and old pump just to be certain before committing to it! The 680 will need a few days to cure first so I best get a move on and order some.

 

Andy

 

 

[coldone 35]

Andy,

I dont think the 680 is actually to "glue" the two surfaces together. I think its going to act as a filler to help spread the forces equally on all surfaces. This will be to make for the minor misalignment of shaft and coupler. I think it will also help cushion the splines on sudden force changes. I just dont see 680 holding both pieces together with that much vibration for very long although there is a lot of surface area so I may be totally wrong. Either way its not going to hurt.

[tommyg 152]

I stumbled upon this thread yesterday and read with interest. I'm not sure I understand this splined washer that you guys speak of, but my coupler on my d180 bit the dust the other day. I have another one on the way, but looking at the play between the coupler and the pump shaft, I was curious whether this Loctite 680 or similar "glue" would help to minimize further wear on the coupler and the pump shaft. Does it make sense to use it when the new coupler arrives?

[pfrederi 17,874]

I put some on my D it did seem to take out some of teh slop.  Only has a few minutes of run time so too soon to say if it is al ong term fix.  For a $1.98 for a .02 oz capsule i do not think it can hurt.

[wheeledhorseman 574]

I also used some and it reduced the slop but haven't had the time yet to get the tractor up and running again yet so also waiting to see.

The pump I've used for the D-200 was actually from a C-161 transmission, the splines seemed in good condition which is to be expected I guess as the pulley is bolted securely onto the shaft on a C and not subjected to the traumas that the D flexible coupling brings into play.

What I did find though is that there was a little rotational slop present with the pulley on the pump when the bolt was removed so perhaps we are looking for perfection that was never there in the first place.

[DavidP 9]

On 4/28/2015 at 3:51 PM, wheeledhorseman said:

My original aim was to have the pump out of the D-200 by now but this thread has got me thinking and as a result I'm likely to do a far better job reinstalling the good replacement as a result. Electrons delivered said copies of the TSBs thanks Paul.

 

I managed to steal an hour from other duties to investigate things a little further.

 

 

Cleaning up the other face of the splined washer revealed shiny polished marks where there's been some movement between the washer and the end of the splines on the pump shaft. Conclusion: there must be some play here due to worn splines. Sure enough having cleaned everything up and put the coupler back on the pump shaft I could feel the play - not OTT but play nonetheless which would cause ever increasing wear if not kept in check.

 

To prove that the preload force, which effectively holds the coupler and washer firmly against the end of the pump shaft, overcomes this I hatched a plan.

 

 

The weakness in the original D coupler design appears to be that it was allowed to to float on the pump shaft splines rather than having a long enough shaft to sit snugly against the end of the pump shaft as is the case on a pulley driven pump. Having checked that a bolt and washer from a pulley drive would fit in the space (photo above) I used it to secure the coupler and spline washer to the pump shaft. As the bolt began to tighten (mimicking the preload) the play in the splines was taken up.

 

It occurred to me that when using the Loctite 680 on worn splines this would be a good way of ensuring that everything is held in correct alignment while it cures. I also wondered if there isn't any reason for not keeping the bolt and washer in place permanently.  (Thoughts?)

 

All this is of course fine for dealing with spline wear as long as you have access to the special splined washer so I thought about how one could make one. The easiest solution that came to mind was sacrificing a standard Sundstrand pulley.

 

 

It would require grinding out the welds that hold the pulley on the shaft then turning down the shaft on a lathe to achieve the correct diameter followed by parting off a 3/16ths slice assuming the tool will cut the hardened steel.

 

Andy

Anybody know what tractor the pulley you posted came from or a part number?

I was thinking of using a one of these pulleys to repair or make a new drive coupling for my D200.

Why couldn't someone use the the hub from that pulley to weld to some flat stock to make a semi-new coupling?

That's my idea at this point anyways.

Just wondering if that makes any sense.

 

Also, did anybody end up using a bolt and washer to secure the coupler to the pump shaft?

["D"- Man 827]

I was able to purchase 4 of the splined washers all New Old Stock along with... are you ready for this... 5 cast splined couplers also New Old Stock, as well as a bunch of other parts for these hydros, one of which is a swash plate New Old Stock.

Edited March 11, 2020 by "D"- Man

[DavidP 9]

5 minutes ago, "D"- Man said:

I was able to purchase 4 of the splined washers all New Old Stock along with... are you ready for this... 5 cast splined couplers also New Old Stock, as well as a bunch of other parts for.these hydros, one of which is a swash plate New Old Stock.

Are you selling any of them?

I'm in the market.

["D"- Man 827]

35 minutes ago, DavidP said:

Are you selling any of them?

I'm in the market.

No, I may try to post some pictures, but I don't make it a habit of selling New Old Stock 18 Automatic D-series parts knowing how rare they are becoming.

[DavidP 9]

So what was the point of your post?

Was is just to gloat?

This thread is about dealing with the common problem with our tractors and is meant to help solve and be helpful to the community.

If you're just looking for a pat on the back or to be congratulated on your score then post an ad in your local paper.

Wow!

 

 

 

["D"- Man 827]

Here is the part #104892

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by "D"- Man

[DavidP 9]

1 hour ago, "D"- Man said:

Here is a picture of the splined washers, I have other pictures of the New Old Stock hydro parts I purchased with them in a job lot but I better not post lest I be guilty of gloating.

 

I posted in this thread because I was looking for a solution to my coupler woes.

I have been frustratingly looking for a while now and when you posted you had five I thought you were answering my prayers.

Thought it mighty rude of you to post that you had some but were unwilling to share.

You'd be frustrated and upset too if you were in the same situation.

 

Do you have a D series tractor that you're hording parts for?