Is it too late to paint?

[HorseFixer 2,013]

Looks like yer doing a nice job!

Cheers Duke

[KyBlue 655]

great lookin job!

[sorekiwi 761]

Thanks guys, but it looks better in the pictures than in real life...

The tank came out really good, except for the bug in the top

The belt gaurd is ok, a little bit of orange peel along the top (visible) edge. The hood has a bit of orange peel too, and a few spots where the pitting is showing through. We'll see what it looks like in a couple of weeks after a good buffing.

I shoulda realized that where the "Wheel Horse" is embossed into the front would be a danger zone for a run.

But hey, Ive seen (and done) worse. :USA:

[Butch 194]

Sorekiwi I have a couple of questions. Did you use a rattle can or a gun? I can't tell if that's an air hose or garden hose on the ground. How well did you prep it? Did you do the wet sanding? How many coats of paint and how long did you wait between coats? If you used a gun I'm sure you used a hardner so how long will you have to wait to work on it again? Will you wet sand the orange peel or use a rubbing compund?

Butch

[sorekiwi 761]

  Butch said:

Sorekiwi I have a couple of questions. Did you use a rattle can or a gun? I can't tell if that's an air hose or garden hose on the ground. How well did you prep it? Did you do the wet sanding? How many coats of paint and how long did you wait between coats? If you used a gun I'm sure you used a hardner so how long will you have to wait to work on it again? Will you wet sand the orange peel or use a rubbing compund?

Butch

I'm certainly no expert on painting, there's plenty of better qualified people than me to answer your questions..... but right or wrong, here's what I did.

These bits are off my Lawn Ranger as descibed in this post: http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3240&hl=

A lot of the smaller pieces have been painted with rattle cans, but the toolbox, fenders, hoodstand and these bits today where painted with a gun. Its all been Valspar "Restoration Series" paint from TSC (both in the gun and in rattlecans). I used Hardener with the gun Primer has been Valspar sandable grey mainly, or High build primer from NAPA (dont remember the brand) or an etching primer also from NAPA. All the primer was done with rattlecans (apart from a disastrous f-up on the hood when I used a gun and ended up taking it back to bare metal and starting again).

This tractor was really rusty with a lot of pitting, so it was taken right down to bare metal, run through an electrolysis tank, small parts were blasted, a skim coat of filler on the worst of the pitting. The primer was wet sanded to 400 grit most places, the hood wet sanded to 800 grit.

I put 3 coats on the non-visible bits and 4 on the tops, about 20 minutes between coats. It was dry in a couple of hours, but it stays pretty soft for a couple of weeks (at least it did in Summer time). With the cooler weather maybe it will stay soft even longer?

I think I'll try buffing the orange peel first, if that doesnt fix it I'll try wet sanding. If I still dont like it I'll rub it right down and take it to a real painter! <_<

As I said above, there are some very experianced painters here who could answer your questions better. I'm just a hack!

[wh500special 2,248]

I'm not much of a painter and have never been satisfied with my DIY results, but I do have a few suggestions to offer anyway. take them with however many tons of salt you wish...and I DON'T mean to sound condescending on any of this so please don't read it that way.

1. Jim mentions something that I didn't know; that the hardeners often contain Isocyanates - which are one of the components used in Polyurethane paints that allows the crosslinking reaction to take place...

Unless things have changed in the last few years in the world of respirator technology, there are no disposable cartridge respirators on the market that can capture these molecules. That's the big reason Polyurethane paints aren't typically mainstream materials. You have to use "supplied air" equipment.

A typical respirator cartdge is filled with activated carbon/charcoal that adsorbs organic molcules as they waft by....they are not "filters" in the conventional sense of allowing something to pass thru a given sized hole, instead the solvent molecule "sticks" to the carbon's surface. The surface and physical chemistries of isocyanates don't adsorb like the solvents and other stuff will that is in the paint.

Now, that said, I believe strongly in the whole dose-response theory so if you use a high quality, good-fitting respirator (don't cheap out) and limit your exposure (i.e. don't linger in the booth to admire your work) the risks are reduced. FOLLOW label directions carefully and exactly and pick your cartridge carefully by also following its label. ideally you'd also make those cartridges a "single use" item. Don't "steam purge" them either. Replacing them is expensive, but they are cheaper than a new set of lungs or a round of chemo...

2. The moisture you see condensing on all the metal stuff in your cold garage when you run your portable heater comes from the water produced during the combustion of the fuel (I am assuming you're burning something). Since CO2 and H2O are the primary combustion products when you burn something organic, there is no way around this generation of water. But if you ventilate, dehumidify, or warm your shop up for a long period of time prior to painting (long enough to warm everything IN the shop above the dew point temp) then you can avoid the problem. If you use electric heat you won't have the water issue.

3. To avoid stuff from settling on your freshly painted surfaces, you can try suspending them upside down. i.e. put the "good side" down and back side "up". Bugs can still land wherever they please, but it will minimize some of the other gravity-driven things from sticking.

4. Although I have done it too, electric fans running while loading the air with a fine mist of combustible or flammable solvent may not be the best idea. Same thing with the compressor motor. The chances of an accidental fire from all the "arcing and sparking" are very minimal since it is tough to get exactly the right fuel/air mix going in your shop, but they are very real. If it does ignite, it will be a rather short lived event (explosions are FAST) but it will probably be rather unpleasant. It's done all the time (guilty here) but if all the stars align it could be a disaster...Best practice would be to provide for natural convection from a cross breeze. Obviously, don't smoke or run those heaters during painting either...

5. In our manufacturing shop we are saving about 50% of the paint and solvent we used to use by switching to HVLP systems. Our overspray (and resultant mess) is reduced. Additionally they are helping with vapor recovery and air filtration issues. If you get serious into refurbing these things, it might be worth the investment to go HVLP since transfer efficiencies are so much higher.

Again, I'm not trying to poo-poo everything here or scare you from occasional painting, just offering up some suggestions. I'm a chemical engineer, so I tend to error on the side of caution when it comes to chemical use since it's always somebody else's health I have to be concerned about when it comes to handling stuff like this and I know all the "bad stuff" that can happen (plus, I have a natural sense of paranoia about safety stuff...). Again, take it with a grain of salt and don't let my preaching stop you from pursuing this as a hobby, but DO take precautions.

Steve

[linen beige 14]

  wh500special said:

1. Jim mentions something that I didn't know; that the hardeners often contain Isocyanates - which are one of the components used in Polyurethane paints that allows the crosslinking reaction to take place...

The surface and physical chemistries of isocyanates don't adsorb like the solvents and other stuff will that is in the paint.

the whole dose-response theory so if you use a high quality, good-fitting respirator (don't cheap out) and limit your exposure (i.e. don't linger in the booth to admire your work) the risks are reduced.

Steve, Valspar hardener contains aliphatic polyisocyanate and isophorone diisocyanate. They recommend the use of a NIOSH approved respirator of the positive pressure, air line type. In other words a supplied fresh air respirator that brings clean air in from outside the area instead of filtering air from the area. Since isocyanates can also react with the moisture on your eyeballs, I would recommend a full face shield type.

If you have had a reaction to this stuff like I have, you DO NOT want to risk another one. And Subsequent reactions can be caused by lower and lower exposures.

I'm not saying don't use hardeners. I wouldn't paint without them. Just be careful how you handle them.

Another way to control dust from settling on fresh paint is to cover the part with a CLEAN carboard box turned upside down over it, raised off the floor or table high enough to allow air to still circulate around the part. And since you need to vacate the building while the fumes disipate, TURN OFF THE LIGHTS! That way they don't attract bugs.

A couple guys have mentioned airbrush artists. True that airbrushes are most often used for extremely fine detail work and very subtle applications of material. But most can also be used to spray a fair volume of paint over a fair sized pattern. My Pasche model has three tips and I can use it from a couple PSI of pressure, holding it within 1/16 inch of a detail area moving slowly to add shading to 90 plus PSI several inches away from the surface to lay down a round pattern five to six inches wide at rates comparable to a larger gun. It really shines when used on parts such as spindles, lift arms, linkage rods, etc. because I can actually paint sections of the parts and overlap those sections as I go. This way I'm putting my paint on the part, not wasting it as overspray. And did I mention the surface comes out like wet glass?

[HorseFixer 2,013]

  wh500special said:

Since CO2 and H2O are the primary combustion products when you burn something organic, there is no way around this generation of water. But if you ventilate, dehumidify, or warm your shop up for a long period of time prior to painting (long enough to warm everything IN the shop above the dew point temp) then you can avoid the problem. If you use electric heat you won't have the water issue.

Steve

Well yeah one thing to consider is this, In my 25 years as a Mechanical HVAC Contractor the best thing to use on a fossil fuel heating appliance is a vent! This elevates all by products of combustion from being distributed in the work place ie; moisture and carbon monoxide.

Salamanders or any appliance that vents directly in the workspace is not good for your health but as Steve stated will cause other problems. If you want to exhaust air out of the building you need to replace that air, this can be achieved properly by tempering the inlet air by hooking to the return side of the furnace before the air filter. In doing this you can pre-heat the air to maintain space temperature. II also recommend a 2" pleated filter -vs- a 1' fiberglass throw away as these catch more particles. You can also use a "filter coat" which is a spray that is used with a tack film that also helps increase the filters efficiency for this process.

Cheers Duke

[Butch 194]

Are you saying if I use hardners I must have a fresh air supply to breath?

A respriator isn't good enough? If I'm indoors that is.

Butch

[wh500special 2,248]

  Butch said:

Are you saying if I use hardners I must have a fresh air supply to breath?

A respriator isn't good enough? If I'm indoors that is.

Butch

well...yes and no.

Follow the label directions carefully. if they seem to give insufficient data, ask the manufacturer or retailer for a copy of the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). It will give more detail on the appropriate precautions but can be somewhat cryptic if you're not familar with some of the jargon.

The supplied air requirements are strictly due to the unique chemical properties of some of the molecules used in modern coatings. Your cartridge respirator will trap the bulk of the organics, but it will let the isocyanates right thru. Just because you're not smelling fumes doesn't mean you're catching everything.

a lot of health effects from painting are proportional to exposure. If you're a hobbiest who paints a tractor a year, then some exposure (still using a respirator) will not have the same cumulative effects as will painting a tractor every month or making your living spraying cars in the Maaco shop. If you're doing a lot of painting, you should invest in some serious protective gear and just consider it another cost of the hobby. You can liken this to smoking perhaps...doing it occasionally is bad for you...doing it regularly is REALLY bad for you...but the effects are not as well known at this point as are those for the smoking example.

The quality of paint has improved drasitcally over the past decades. Much of that progression has been thanks to the reactive chemistries used in modern paints. That reactivity - from some hardeners - has also brought on new health consequences all of which aren't yet known.

Bottom line, follow the manufacturer's directions. And error on the side of caution whenever possible.

Will I paint any of my own stuff w/o the appropriate equipment? yes. but I paint a tractor on average once every four years, so exposure for me is a LOT less than it might be for you. If I ever get serious about the actual restoration of these things, you can bet I will sacrifice a tractor or two to pay for a good respirator.

And, of course, continue wearing your masks when you are sanding/grinding/blasting off the old paint from your tractors. Chances are, it has lead in it.

Steve

[linen beige 14]

  Butch said:

Are you saying if I use hardners I must have a fresh air supply to breath?

A respriator isn't good enough? If I'm indoors that is.

Butch

If, and I mean IF, you can move enough fresh air through your shop to keep any overspray out of your body, then you don't need a respirator, or even a mask of any kind. But you may have a hard time painting in a huricane. Isocyanates are some very good products for what they are intended to do. They were developed as a means of closing battle wounds during the Viet Nam era. "liquid stitches".

They also have some nasty habits that were not intentionally designed into them. IF you have a reaction to them it takes less to cause another reaction. And even less for every exposure after that.

Do you recall the scene in Beverly Hill's Cop where Eddie Murphy used super glue (an isocyanate) inside an aquarium to raise a fingerprint from a piece of paper? It works because the fumes from the glue react with and harden onto the oils left on the paper. It will do the same thing inside of you. And the longer you are exposed, the deeper into you it will go.

I'm not trying to scare you away from using them, just pointing out that they can be pretty nasty if you don't play by their rules. And yes, even though I've had a reaction and several smaller ones since then, I still love the smell of Centari in the morning. And I do still sometimes paint without any mask. I just don't get down wind!

And Steve brings up another great point about the older paint having lead in it. And red was one of the colors that used the most lead. And who really knows what's inside some of the rattle can paints we've all inhaled?

The main thing is just go out there and have fun with the paint gun! But do be careful with it.

[Butch 194]

My plan is to seal off one garage bay with tarps or plastic sheeting. I'll have an area about 10x20 to work with. I'll crack the garage door open and stick a fan there to exhaust the fumes out. I'm not sure how to get fresh air in. I was also planning on buying those disposable tyvek coveralls with the hood and booties built in. I did try my respirator in the garage with a rattle can. It worked well.

Surprisingly there was red paint on the respirator filters intakes. So that tells me you are breathing in paint without it. I guess I'll also use the Valspar Restoration paint with the hardner since that is all I'm finding information on and it is relatively cheap. But I'm also concerned about how long it really takes to harden up and cure. I guess it can take a month or longer. Do I use sandpaper or rubbing compound to get the orange peel out? I was hoping to get my frame back today but now the welder says Thursday. I'm not gonna do the hood or fenders until I see how everything else comes out. It also seems like these 300 Series have a ton more parts than the older tractors. I still keep seeing more parts that have to be done.

Butch

[linen beige 14]

Sounds like a plan!

You've likely seen others talking about wet sanding their primer coats with 600 grit paper and some that go to even finer grades. Work your way through grades wet sanding up to and including 600 and clean off all your sanding crud. Then one last scuff with dry 600 grit leaves a plenty smooth substrate without compromising adhesion, you can get the primer too slick for the paint to stick to. As for orange peel, practice with your gun to learn how to minimize it. If you do end up with some allow the paint to cure and then, depending on how severe it is, wet sand with 600 grit on a hand held rubber block to work down the majority of it and then use rubbing compound, followed by polishing compound. Don't try using a power buffer on enamel, The friction will soften the film and it will "roll" or "ball" up under the pad. If you break through the paint film during the color sanding/rubbing out, just scuff the surface with 600 grit and lay down another top coat.

You might want to check out a local book store or library for books on auto restoration. They usually have pretty good info on painting older machines.

[Raider12 13]

I have read a hand full of these post left about how to paint and not too. If you are painting inside, the one thing that is most important is AIR FLOW! Paint dries with LOTS of air flowing across the surface. You need a fan or fans (the bigger the better)that will exhuast the paint over spray from the room as quickly as possble. I ideal setup would be to have the fans at one end and a window open at the other. Allowing air to be pulled across the painted items promoting a faster dry time. this will also help to eliminate the bugs in the finish. The air flowing across the room keeps the bugs from flying right over your work, but the paint will dry fast so if a bug did land on your work, it will be close to dry and he can picked out without a lot of trouble.

One problem with rattle can is that it will not have hardners and can be easly damaged if gas or other items such as some cleaners would come in contact with it.

I have been painting automobles for almost 25 years for a living up unitl resently. There are a lot of do's and don'ts that would apply to the professional setting but you make some compromises at home. Painting these out side in the sun was probably a good idea with the temp being what is was.

Denver

[wh500special 2,248]

  linen beige said:

Isocyanates are some very good products for what they are intended to do. They were developed as a means of closing battle wounds during the Viet Nam era. "liquid stitches".

Actually Jim the superglues, like Dermabond, are "cyanoacrylates" which is a little different chemistry than the isos.

For what it is worth, superglues are a moisture cure product which is why they bond skin so well and so quickly. If you drop a droplet of superglue on a table top you will notice that a skin will eventually cure over it from the moisture in the air, but the droplet itself will remain liquid since that skin is largely impermeable to water.

You can use water to your advantage on superglues when you bond things like glass or steel (materials that don't hold much moisture on thier surfaces). A little spritz of water quickly wiped away immediately before bond will help it stick better.

The water reaction is highly exothermic (gets hot) but you can cure superglues by mixing them with water. Goes really fast. Acetone will partly cure it too.

I should look up what is in paint more before I launch into a dissertation about their chemistries, but Isos can (and probably are) cured by something other than water in the paint since that pathway tends to liberate CO2 which would cause bubbles (that rapidly expanding insulation foam you can buy in a can is an example of the water/urethane reaction. 'Good Stuff' is the name I think). Amine curing agents and polyols are likely what does the job in paints since they can be tailored to provide increased adhesion and other properties.

There are other chemicals too that cause the increased sensitization that Jim mentions. Polyurethanes (ISOs) are certainly one, but epoxies can cause skin and lung irritation too much like poison ivy. We all have different levels of sensitivity to these things, but once you have an outbreak event it seems your threshold level is drastically decreased....contrary to myth, nobody is immune to poison ivy, some of us just haven't had it yet.

Sorry to take this thread way out on a tangent...I will shut up now!

Steve

[wh500special 2,248]

  Raider12 said:

There are a lot of do's and don'ts that would apply to the professional setting but you make some compromises at home.

Best advice I have seen! I wish I would have come up with that!

[linen beige 14]

  Raider12 said:

There are a lot of do's and don'ts that would apply to the professional setting but you make some compromises at home. Painting these out side in the sun was probably a good idea with the temp being what is was.

Well, didn't you just roll up a BUNCH of words and stuff them into one clear sentence!

If you look at the best paint booths, they are set up to as closely as possible replicate painting outdoors in good sunlight, with a light breeze.

[Butch 194]

I can still paint outside if it's preferred over the garage. We should still have some more 60 degree days left from time to time. But I don't have my frame back yet

and I wanna prep it with Por15 which takes a couple days. I should be able to put all the top coats on in one day and then move the parts to the garage. My concern about outside is all the crap falling from the trees. Even in a clear area I still have trees all around me.

Butch

[HorseFixer 2,013]

Butch have used POR15? you made the right choice the more humid it is the faster it dries it is unlike any other paint on the market! Get it on ya..... yer gonna wear it for a few days! Ill post some pics later of a Ford F1 frame I did a few years back.

Duke

[Butch 194]

Horsefixer I've used it about 10 years now but it's all been chassi work. I've used it on 2 66 Vettes and my old 97 F-150. This is the first time I'm using it where it will need a visible topcoat. I have a couple boxes of disposable surgical gloves I bought cheap from Harbor Freight always on hand. I have brushed it on and you know it is pretty bullet proof. So it is pretty tough stuff to sand. Hopefully I got it smooth enough that 3 coats of Tie Coat will allow me to smooth it all out. This is pretty thick stuff considering how many coats will be on it. I haven't touched the fenders or the hood yet. I wanna see how well the other parts turn out that have the Por15 treatment. I'll have to drill through openings where the bolts go because you can't chip or sand out the holes. The threaded holes will be another problem. I doubt I'll be able to get a bolt through them without stripping them. So I may have to dab on paint stripper to clean them out. But it's been a very slow process. I'm gonna allow the Tie Coat primer a week to cure in at least a 65 degree environment. Tie Coat will not cure below 54 degrees and the process is very slow under 60 degrees. I have quite a few of the Por15 paints on hand. Some are 10 years old and have been stored in my garage that long. I've still never had a problem with them. 10 winters and 10 summers and they still mix like new and spread like new. They still appear to be very bullet proof.

Butch

[546cowboy 301]

:hide: After reading all of this I sure am glad I don't have a heated shop and do not paint anything when it's below 60 degrees. I have been painting farm tractors and garden tractors for about 8 years now and they have all been painted outside. I would say I have painted maybe 50 tractors total (farm & garden), so I'm not exactly a novice but I don't make a living at it either.

Buy the way I do use paint guns from Harbor Freight. I have two 20 oz. guns and two touch up guns. On lawn tractors I use the two small guns, one for primer and one for finish. I have been using Van Sickle Implement paint for at least 6 years and with the hardener it really looks good.

Here is a picture of my latest paint job.

The biggest thing about using a spray gun is making up your mind to do it and after you see how much nicer the job looks ,you'll be wanting to do some more. Everybody who has ever painted with a gun has made many mistakes but you just have to get over it and try not to let that happen again.

Now by outside I mean mostly because I have a shop with a big sliding door and as long as the wind isn't blowing into the shop I paint a lot just inside the doorway with a fan blowing out. Another thing about the fan, do not set it on the floor. If you do it will blow dust and dirt you didn't know you had all over the place.

I really did not intend to make this so long but that's how I see it from my own experience. The key to any paint job is the prep work, you have to be meticulous during prep to get the results you want.