Suburban Basket Case

[Molon_Labe 731]

First real snow and now it's time for the winter project, tear down the 400 Suburban!!

Here we go!

And now for the hub removal...... 12 Ton press and away we go......

 

More to come.

 

[Jparkes43 329]

this will be a nice project, i like thesse tractors, good luck with it nice little winter project

 

james

[AMC RULES 37,127]

Good progress...    

what made it a basket case? 

[Molon_Labe 731]

Craig, that would be me. This 400 has always been eye appealing but totally lacking in the mechanical department, seals, bearings, bushings, steering etc... It's now time to fix it up mechanically.

[Geno 1,929]

Make her new again.  

[GT14 243]

Looking real good   

[Tom. 70]

Looking good so far, watching this closely as I want to go through my suburban soon. Are you going to strip the gearbox out?

Tom

[Molon_Labe 731]

Looking good so far, watching this closely as I want to go through my suburban soon. Are you going to strip the gearbox out?

Tom

 

Hi Tom,

 

Yes, the transmission is going to be completely torn down. I know that the axle bushings are bad along with the brake shaft bearing. I will post pics when I get it apart.

[Tom. 70]

That would be great, take plenty of pictures! I want to tear mine down but I only got as far as taking one cover plate off, I didn't dare take any gears out. I will be following closely.

Tom

[Molon_Labe 731]

Here's what we have so far with the transmission. The brake shaft was known to be loose and here's why. There is no sign of the missing needle in the case and no metallic shavings.

Left side axle bushing and seal removed.

And some internal shots. All of the gears look good at this point.

Bushing removal tool.

[Racinbob 11,036]

That looks pretty clean to me. Did you flush it first? How does the hi/2nd gear (3523) look? Especially the inside teeth that mesh with the input gear. That gear was pretty well shot in my transmission.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Racinbob

[Molon_Labe 731]

That looks pretty clean to me. Did you flush it first? How does the hi/2nd gear (3523) look? Especially the inside teeth that mesh with the input gear. That gear was pretty well shot in my transmission.

No flush Bob, just pulled the drain bolt a couple of months ago and let it do it's thing. The 3523 gear has some leading edge wear but it doesn't look bad enough to worry about. If folks would just depress the clutch and wait for the tractor to stop before shifting this would not be an issue. Here is the best pic I could get of it.

[Coadster32 793]

I wouldn't call this a basket case. It's actually a very nice tractor. Just need a little TLC which you are on already! Good luck with it.

[Molon_Labe 731]

I wouldn't call this a basket case. It's actually a very nice tractor. Just need a little TLC which you are on already! Good luck with it.

 

Thanks Coadster32! The primary reason for the rebuild is that my oldest son and grandson want to take a couple of my tractors to the Indiana State Fair next year for the antique tractor parade (a week long affair). The C-101 is good to go but the Suburban really needed some serious work in order to make it ready for the show.

[Racinbob 11,036]

That doesn't look too bad. The main problem could be the inside teeth that can't be seen without pulling the gear out. The input shaft chomps on the those teeth in 3rd gear. In my opinion that where the biggest weak link is in these transmissions. Here's a picture of a NOS gear and one that is worn. You're so right about letting things stop before shifting. I'm so guilty of not doing that but it was 50+ years ago when I would run my Dad's Suburban through the gears just like Daddy did with the car Keep in mind that I'm just expressing my opinion here. The real experts will chime in.

[Molon_Labe 731]

That doesn't look too bad. The main problem could be the inside teeth that can't be seen without pulling the gear out. The input shaft chomps on the those teeth in 3rd gear. In my opinion that where the biggest weak link is in these transmissions. Here's a picture of a NOS gear and one that is worn. You're so right about letting things stop before shifting. I'm so guilty of not doing that but it was 50+ years ago when I would run my Dad's Suburban through the gears just like Daddy did with the car Keep in mind that I'm just expressing my opinion here. The real experts will chime in.

 

I'll know more tomorrow Bob when the tear down is complete. I grew up on a Farmall "H" and was told to always stop the tractor before changing gears!

[Molon_Labe 731]

Pulled the left side plate off and removed all the gears. Aside from the axle bushings, seals and brake shaft bearing everything else looks good. Bob here's a pic of the inside of the 2/3 gear.

 

[Racinbob 11,036]

I'm thinking definitely iffy. Hey Stevasaurus!! What do you think? OK for a non-worker?

[Coadster32 793]

That doesn't look too bad. The main problem could be the inside teeth that can't be seen without pulling the gear out. The input shaft chomps on the those teeth in 3rd gear. In my opinion that where the biggest weak link is in these transmissions. Here's a picture of a NOS gear and one that is worn. You're so right about letting things stop before shifting. I'm so guilty of not doing that but it was 50+ years ago when I would run my Dad's Suburban through the gears just like Daddy did with the car Keep in mind that I'm just expressing my opinion here. The real experts will chime in.

 

No expert here, but did a write-up on these trannys a few years back on the old forum, showing and expressing the same thoughts on third gear. The mating input gear gets a little trashed on the end as well. Between this and the ball detent getting whacked out, third gear will slip out under load. Very common in these trannys. Another thing to look out for is the thickness of the shift forks. I had one so worn out, it wouldn't keep the gear engaged. If your's is worn, you'll know it by looking at it.

 

The gear in M_Bailey's tranny could still be good if the mating gear is ok, he gets full throw with the forks, and the ball detent does it's job. The question is did it slip out of gear before? If not, and it won't be a worker, I'd say use it.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Coadster32

[Molon_Labe 731]

No expert here, but did a write-up on these trannys a few years back on the old forum, showing and expressing the same thoughts on third gear. The mating input gear gets a little trashed on the end as well. Between this and the ball detent getting whacked out, third gear will slip out under load. Very common in these trannys. Another thing to look out for is the thickness of the shift forks. I had one so worn out, it wouldn't keep the gear engaged. If your's is worn, you'll know it by looking at it.

 

The gear in M_Bailey's tranny could still be good if the mating gear is ok, he gets full throw with the forks, and the ball detent does it's job. The question is did it slip out of gear before? If not, and it won't be a worker, I'd say use it.

 

Coadster thanks for chiming in, all help is appreciated. The tranny has never jumped out of any gear and the shift forks look good as does the ball detent. The mating surfaces of the input gear shows little wear and mates up the the 2/3 gear solid. I'll post another pic that may give a better perspective of the 2/3 gear than the post above.

[Racinbob 11,036]

That does offer a better perspective. I believe it would be OK from that shot. If you check out my thread I had an additional problem. I could shift into 3rd and then move the shifter past the detent a little bit. Releasing the shifter would allow it to move back to the detent but then it disengaged the 2/3 gear from the input gear about 3/32". My forks, rails and detent ball were in good shape. Ultimately the fix was to use a properly sized arbor shim behind the input gear. It worked and now I maintain full engagement. I suppose it's possible that the input shaft bearing was too thin or it was driven in too deeply but the shim did the trick. I actually would like to tear it apart again to have another look but it's all together and ready to go so I don't want to go to that extent. From what you're saying you are getting a good engagement and it didn't slip out of 3rd so that won't be an issue for you.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Racinbob

[stevasaurus 22,700]

I just saw this thread.  I think you would be OK with the 2nd/3rd fork gear...pushing snow with a blade in 3rd gear at full throttle is when you may have that issue.  Rebuild looks nice.

[Molon_Labe 731]

I just saw this thread.  I think you would be OK with the 2nd/3rd fork gear...pushing snow with a blade in 3rd gear at full throttle is when you may have that issue.  Rebuild looks nice.

 

Thanks Steve, this little tractor's working days are over for sure. Fair duty next summer will probably be the extent of it's use for the foreseeable future. I have most of the parts located for the transmission (thanks for listing the Motion Industries part numbers, saved me a lot of time) except for the axle seals and I have an idea there that may work.

[Molon_Labe 731]

The transmission is all back together now (whew!!) and everything looks good. The only issue was with the axle bushings which were slightly undersized and required honing (.996 ID) but not a big deal. The axle seals are the same ones taken off which have been soaking in brake fluid for the last month and are now soft and supple, they really grip the axle. Time will tell how well they hold up.

A couple of pics -

 

 

 

No binding at all and no leaks so far so the next step is to resolve the steering issues followed by paint prep.

 

A special thanks again to Stevasaurus for posting the MI part numbers which was a tremendous help!!! More to come.

Edited December 21, 2014 by M_Bailey

[Molon_Labe 731]

This is the pits!!!!! Literally!

 

Started stripping the hood and could not believe the pitting and prior filling once I got started on it. There were welds, brazing, lead and Bondo. Not to mention that all of the hood mounts were cracked out. Here are a few shots of it.

 

 

 

 

The hood mounts are all repaired now but the question is what to do about the pitting? I have used 3M Plastic Metal in the past with good results but not on an area this large. Also note that it appears that two hoods were cut and joined in the middle to form one via the weld and re-form below!!!!

 

 

I'm having more fun than a hog in mud........

Edited December 31, 2014 by M_Bailey