85 416-8

[nappypappy 98]

well having a problem with the wiring since all the wires are black, not sure why since i have had this since 85 and don't think I changed all of them.

but what I need is some pictures showing the wires if that possible....in the mean time I will be watching ebay.....

thanks in advance for any help I can get or pictures..... 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,104]

Wiring diagrams for model 31-16K801

 

Garry

[nappypappy 98]

Hello and thanks but I have the diagrams,what I am looking for are real pictures...all my wires are black and not color coded....

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

What detail about the wiring do you wish to see in the pictures?

 

Are you trying to accomplish a complete rewire of the tractor or are you trying to repair a certain electrical function ?

[nappypappy 98]

hello and I wasn't starting out to rewire it but since I cant go by a diagram and all the wires are black looks like I will rewire it now.

any place that shows which wire goes to what is what I need.......this all started when it was running and I felt the coil and it was almost to hot to touch and couple of wires were hot.....I have books and diagrams but with no way to be sure its right or if there maybe a short which I haven't found any so far. 

thanks.

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Sounds like the main concern you have is a hot coil not wiring issues.

 

There are three main types of coils that find their way into the points based tractors,

 

1. THE CORRECT COIL =  this coil has a"internal resistor" within the coil body that restricts the amount of current that flows thru the points and coil combo. The internal primary resistance of this type coil can be measured with an multimeter at about 3 - 4 ohms. If 12 volts powers a 4 ohm resistance, 3 amps flows and that equates to about 36 watts of power - warm but not hot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. INCORRECT COIL - REQUIRES EXTERNAL RESISTOR -  this look alike is visually identical to the correct coil but its internal wiriing can overheat if an "external resistor" is not used in series  with the coil. The primary resistance of this coil will be in the 1 - 2 ohm range. The external resistor accounts for another 2 ohms. Properly configured,  this combo is the equivalent of the 4 ohm  internal resistor coil discussed above.

 

If this coil is used alone, the electrical system will see the lower resistance and double the current flowing thru the coil and points. The result is over-heating the coil and premature erroding away the point's contacts.

 

12 volts powering a 1.5 ohm circuit equals 8 amps of current flowing and generating nearly 100 watts of heat and energy. We are now seeing the coil get hot.

 

 

 

3. ELECTRONIC IGNITION COILS - these are the high energy bad boys of the ignition world and demand gigantic gulps of current to operate as intended. They will fry points within minutes. The primary resistance of this style coil is usually well under 1 ohm and current draw can be near 20 amps. These coils are fine if you drive them with electronic ignition modules. They will fry GT wiring very quicky. 20 amps of current flowing thru this circuit generates over 200 watts of power. Wires melt, points vaporize.

 

Measure your prmary ignition coil resistance. Anything less than 3 ohms and you have either a shorted coil or an incorrect coil on the tractor. A correct coil should be labeled "12 volts" . If you see "external resistor required" on the coil or the coil looks like it came out of a spaceship, you have the wrong coil.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

And if you have the meter out and are measuring your coil, give the secondary winding a quick check also.

 

 

[nappypappy 98]

ok and will check that..now I remember changing the ignition switch and that maybe the problem since it doesn't have a run just start....

thanks 

[km3h 543]

And if you have the meter out and are measuring your coil, give the secondary winding a quick check also.

 

 

Just one comment. I think you are saying 6,000 to 10,000 OHMs. Again a masterful demonstration of what most see as a very complex issue.

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Just one comment. I think you are saying 6,000 to 10,000 OHMs. Again a masterful demonstration of what most see as a very complex issue.

Thanks. Good catch. That is exactly what I meant.

 

I noticed how this could be misinterpretted the last time I used this sllide.It escaped my attention back then. I'll be correcting the confusing text in the near future.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

This may be of some further help to you.

 

[nappypappy 98]

Hello and thanks I ordered a new ignition switch today and will wait till it gets here before I do anything else.

thanks again

[km3h 543]

You must be careful when ordering ignition switches. Make sure you are getting one that matches your engine. For instance the switch for an Onan  engine will not work on a tractor with a Kohler engine. They will look the same but the insides are different.  

[nappypappy 98]

Hello and thanks for the tip didn't know that.

Mine has a kohler and I wonder why there would be a difference?

Thanks again

[nappypappy 98]

well I will be rewiring this and will have a switch off a 416 kohler in a few days then the questions began again...

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

 

Mine has a kohler and I wonder why there would be a difference?

 

 

 

The most signifcant difference between common igniton switches is the wiring configuration between MAGNETO based ignition systems and POINTS and COIL (Kettering)based systems.

 

MAGNETO systems do not require connection to 12 volt power sources to function and must have their "kill" terminal connected to the battery negative terminal when ignition is shut down.

 

Kettering systems require 12 volts to be present on the coil for ignition and removal of the 12 volts will kill the ignition.

 

These two different types of electrical configurations require 2 different styles (and part #) ignition switches.

 

Switches that have an "I" terminal are for Kettering systems and switches that have an "M" terminal are for magneto systems.

 

Using and miswiring a Ketterimg system switch into a magneto based tractor will fry the magneto coil.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[nappypappy 98]

ok thanks good info...didn't know that..

I do have my kohler owners manual and it must be a magneto ignition since it has points...is that right or is there anything else I should know?

thanks again

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

If a 1985 416 has points, it is a points based igniiton system and requires the switch I illustrated in post #11 of this thread.

 

The correct ignition switch part # would be 103990.

 

Terminals will be marked B R I A S.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Here are the internal connections made by the 103990 switch in the three different positions possible on this style switch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[nappypappy 98]

oh ok man there's a lot I don't know....I thank you very much.....

[nappypappy 98]

well wiring for me isn't going to be easy....my first problem is all the wires are black and somewhere along the line I am missing pto switch and seat was unhooked but I do have switches and why I don't know.

I must have taken them off for some reason way back.

thanks

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

I know you mentioned all the wires are black and that certainly can be confusing. This is why I posted the "look" and the wiring designations for the igniton switch. We can identify which wires go where by their FUNCTION and not strictly by their color.

 

Ask questions and we will take it one wire at a time.

 

But let's make sure we have the correct ignition switch before we start. I have a 416-8 apart in my basement right now. I can hopefully provide exact info back to you in pics if needed.

[km3h 543]

Save Old Iron

I do wish there were someplace on this site that stored all your illustrations in one place. They are absolutely marvelous and an enormous help for our members. I have hold an Extra class Amateur Radio License, and a better understanding of electronics, than a lot of folks but you sir teach me something new every time you post.

From reading earlier post of yours I gather you have a host of slides, drawings or photos stored and all that would be needed is to find a spot on the forum to post them. One sticky in the electronics section to which you could add to as the need arose would do it.

Again Thank you for the great service you provide to all of us.

[nappypappy 98]

thanks for the replies and I am waiting for switch till I do anything else..

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

Save Old Iron

I do wish there were someplace on this site that stored all your illustrations in one place. They are absolutely marvelous and an enormous help for our members. I have hold an Extra class Amateur Radio License, and a better understanding of electronics, than a lot of folks but you sir teach me something new every time you post.

From reading earlier post of yours I gather you have a host of slides, drawings or photos stored and all that would be needed is to find a spot on the forum to post them. One sticky in the electronics section to which you could add to as the need arose would do it.

Again Thank you for the great service you provide to all of us.

Thank you very much for taking the time to express those sentiments.

 

I am not a big fan of pinned messages that are left "open". The pinned message eventually becomes a dumping ground for every random thought anyone has concerning the subject. The initial clarity of the thread becomes compromised and subsequent readers can spend days trying to decipher among conflicting approaches attempting to solve the same problem. Inevitably, someone posts a picture of a shiny tractor, comments start regarding the paint or tires on the tractor and the thread gets derailed.

 

I do believe an alternative should be sought after. Helping someone learn to troubleshoot a dead battery or corroded ignition switch is only fun the first 500 times you do it !!  I don't wish for #501 to be short changed when they require assistance with their new found prize tractor.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Save Old Iron