Electrolysis for engines

[FarmerJim 5]

Hi all-

anyone here use the electrolysis method to clean the head on an engine?

I have rescued a c-100 and am setting about to tear it down and it occured to me that I cant remember ever seeing a post from anyone who did. this one is all carboned up but I dont remember if aluminum is compatable with this process or not.

[groundhog47 347]

 I would first try a sacrificial piece of similar size. Quote from website on process...

"It should be noted that some metals, like aluminum, will disintegrate faster than others."

Read more : http://www.ehow.com/how_4622632_electrolysis-metals.html

[Racinbob 11,036]

I was thinking I would be a bit hesitant to try then I remembered that I have a head off a 10hp Tecumseh that I don't care about. I'll take before pictures shortly and post them. Then I'll etank it and see what happens. Curiosity always gets the best of me.

[rmaynard 15,425]

The e-tank, as has been described on this forum, is set up for rust removal from ferrous metals, and since heads are aluminum it will not work.

[CasualObserver 3,408]

And to add to Bob....if I'm not mistaken, using something like aluminum or stainless steel in the process creates hazardous waste out of your electrolyte solution.  

[Racinbob 11,036]

You're absolutely right Jason and Bob. It shouldn't work because of no rust. Electrolysis shouldn't remove paint from non-rusted metal either but it does in some cases. I've done it for years. Researching the subject I've read that even the color of the paint makes a difference with red being one that is easier (lucky for us). I don't have a clue as to why but I'd guess it might be due to the pigments in the paint and possibility impurities in the metal. I've also read about the stainless issues and it wouldn't surprise me if aluminum does the same. I've got the head cooking right now. It's likely a dumb experiment but probably not my dumbest.

[Racinbob 11,036]

Forgot to post the before pictures.

[km3h 543]

Why would you use electrolysis on an aluminum head. there is no rust to remove. As for the carbon, break cleaner and a wire brush will do the job. It won't be a snap, but with a little time and energy it will get it clean. Whatever you do, do not use oven cleaner. It will screw the aluminum up bad.  

[Digger 66 3,478]

I would soda blast it .

I've done the cast Aluminum differentials on my wheeler .

Leaves them clean as a whistle & won't harm the valves or seats if you clean afterwards .

[Racinbob 11,036]

Come on guys. I don't really expect it to work. It just hit me that I wanted to see what might happen on an aluminum head I didn't care about. Stranger things have happened. The etank is off right now for the night but I'll give it some more time tomorrow and report back. Can't I have some fun with my stupid experiments?   

[CasualObserver 3,408]

Have all the fun you like! If I were to hypothesize on your result I'd say you'll end up with less of the aluminum head and the start of an aluminum plating on your sacrificial electrode... depending on how long you cook it obviously.

Via Tapatalk 4

[FarmerJim 5]

Didnt mean to stir up such a hornets nest! I love my e tank and have cooked up all kinds of things and I have found it removes paint very well(or at least Ive been lucky so far). I had a nagging feeling it would not work on aluminum but I always turn to you pros when I have questions like this because all these heads are better than my one and I like to think you guys have kept me out of the hospital more than once!.

[rmaynard 15,425]

Just to elaborate on the paint removal aspect of e-tanking. Good paint will not come off in an e-tank. Paint is an insulator, and it will stop the flow of electrons from the anode to the cathode. The flow of electrons is what causes the red oxide (rust) to turn to black oxide. Putting a non-rusty painted piece into an e-tank will do as much good as just soaking it in a bucket of water.

[Save Old Iron 1,566]

For the sake of clarity,

electrolysis is not defined as the process of derusting or cleaning metal. A similar mistake would be defining driving your car behind a gravel truck as a "paint striping process", although that would be one result of such an activity.

The fact rusty iron "derusts" when used as a cathode material is just a happy consequence of using rusty iron as the interface material in the electrolysis bath. In backyard mechanics terms, the electrolysis process steals "extra" oxygen from "rust" so the rust no longer has an overabundance of oxygen which can be used to combine with additional iron to form additional rust.

Clean iron electrodes will still allow electrolysis to occur. Any energy applied to the anode / cathode elements in the bath with a voltage applied in excess of 1 - 2 volts DC will break apart the oxygen / hydrogen bonds in the water bath the electrodes are in contact with.Try hooking a 1.5 volt AA cell up to a small electrolysis setup - you will see voltages at this level support the process, albeit much slower than a 12 volt battery charger.

Aluminum can be used as an electrode but will suffer much faster "erosion" than iron. The fact the surface of the aluminum is being consumed, by default will release any material clinging to the surface of the released aluminum. In backyard terms, yes, the aluminum is being "cleaned". The destruction is not equal across the entire piece of aluminum and coked up areas will clean slower than non coked areas. The cleaning comes at the expense of uneven loss and pitting of the aluminum electrode (your engine head).

Electrolysis as paint stripping process?  Electrolysis results in derusting at an atomic level, that is why it works as effectively as it does. "Rust" is neutralized in nearly every pock mark, crevice and crack on the surface of the item in the bath. Given that paint is not an insulator at the atomic level, if you have enough patience to allow several days of exposure of your painted part to the electrolysis process, paint film pigment carriers will be broken at their interface with the metal piece and the paint will fall off the part in sheets. The only resistance  to lifting the paint film I have encountered is when acid etch primers are used successfully in chemically bonding the primer to the metal surface.

If you want to investigate paint stripping by electrolysis, hook up a battery desulfator to the electrolysis bath. The desulfator "kicks" 50+ amp electrical pulses thru the painted object several hundred times per second. Paint doesn't stand a chance against a desulfator treatment. Slow but effective.

 

@ Racinbob - love your spirit of investigating new ways to accomplish things.Don't loose that spirit.

 

@ Farmer Jim - clean your carbon deposits using mechanical methods, Break cleaner and wire brush. If break cleaner doesn't work, then try brake cleaner.

Cleaning coke from heads is not a beauty contest.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[km3h 543]

For the sake of clarity,

electrolysis is not defined as the process of derusting or cleaning metal. A similar mistake would be defining driving your car behind a gravel truck as a "paint striping process", although that would be one result of such an activity.

The fact rusty iron "derusts" when used as a cathode material is just a happy consequence of using rusty iron as the interface material in the electrolysis bath. In backyard mechanics terms, the electrolysis process steals "extra" oxygen from "rust" so the rust no longer has an overabundance of oxygen which can be used to combine with additional iron to form additional rust.

Clean iron electrodes will still allow electrolysis to occur. Any energy applied to the anode / cathode elements in the bath with a voltage applied in excess of 1 - 2 volts DC will break apart the oxygen / hydrogen bonds in the water bath the electrodes are in contact with.Try hooking a 1.5 volt AA cell up to a small electrolysis setup - you will see voltages at this level support the process, albeit much slower than a 12 volt battery charger.

Aluminum can be used as an electrode but will suffer much faster "erosion" than iron. The fact the surface of the aluminum is being consumed, by default will release any material clinging to the surface of the released aluminum. In backyard terms, yes, the aluminum is being "cleaned". The destruction is not equal across the entire piece of aluminum and coked up areas will clean slower than non coked areas. The cleaning comes at the expense of uneven loss and pitting of the aluminum electrode (your engine head).

Electrolysis as paint stripping process?  Electrolysis results in derusting at an atomic level, that is why it works as effectively as it does. "Rust" is neutralized in nearly every pock mark, crevice and crack on the surface of the item in the bath. Given that paint is not an insulator at the atomic level, if you have enough patience to allow several days of exposure of your painted part to the electrolysis process, paint film pigment carriers will be broken at their interface with the metal piece and the paint will fall off the part in sheets. The only resistance  to lifting the paint film I have encountered is when acid etch primers are used successfully in chemically bonding the primer to the metal surface.

If you want to investigate paint stripping by electrolysis, hook up a battery desulfator to the electrolysis bath. The desulfator "kicks" 50+ amp electrical pulses thru the painted object several hundred times per second. Paint doesn't stand a chance against a desulfator treatment. Slow but effective.

 

@ Racinbob - love your spirit of investigating new ways to accomplish things.Don't loose that spirit.

 

@ Farmer Jim - clean your carbon deposits using mechanical methods, Break cleaner and wire brush. If break cleaner doesn't work, then try brake cleaner.

Cleaning coke from heads is not a beauty contest.

 

WISH I HAD SAID THAT!!!!!!

[clueless 2,975]

Thought everbody knew that.

[Racinbob 11,036]

OK. The results are in. I had a delay due to things coming up but the total tank time was about 8 hours. Before I get a bunch of “I told you so’s†let me say again, I never expected it to work but I just had to see what would happen. I’ve been using electrolysis for more years than I care to admit and do have a good understanding of the process as well as, let’s just say, a wee bit of experience in the electrical industry. When I saw FarmerJim’s post it hit me that I had never tried a chunk of aluminum. Why? Cuz it won’t work. But just what would happen? I had the Tecky head that was going to end up in the trash anyways so I gave it a shot. I had brushed the carbon prior to tanking to remove the loose stuff. After removing it from the tank this morning I just washed in dish soap and lightly brushed it again. More carbon came off but that could have just been from the soaking. The remaining carbon is still attached pretty good. It doesn’t look like it harmed the head and there was no buildup on the anodes. You can see that it’s discolored some and it’s not like the usual black crud that gets washed off. I would say the bottom line is what most expected. There are much better ways to clean a head up.

 

As far as the other issue that comes up so often, it’s not supposed to remove paint either. But it does, even on clean metal. Yes, I’m sure the quality of the paint plays a part but I’ve never failed to get at least 90% of it off. What remains seems to come off much easier. My usual procedure is to start the process on the part to be cleaned. About two hours later I remove the part and clean the loose but still clinging paint off so it doesn’t gunk up the solution so much. Then I cook it some more until I get the result I want. It’s quite possible that I’ve never tried it on a paint good enough but maybe that will be another experiment.

 

So, FarmerJim, since you want to save your head I wouldn’t try it. I know that from firsthand experience now. I don’t think it hurt it but…………..??? If anybody else asks a question about cleaning aluminum in an e-tank you can say emphatically “NO, it won’t work cuz I once read in a forum about this idiot that tried it.â€

[CasualObserver 3,408]

 

What would this world be without those willing to experiment and document.

 

Thanks Bob.

[AMC RULES 37,127]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QblkQ-J6zio

[Racinbob 11,036]

Hmmmmm....I've got this plastic GI Joe that's needing some spiffing up............................

[AMC RULES 37,127]

Ever try using graphite as the anode in your e-tank Bob? 

Edited August 30, 2014 by AMC RULES

[Racinbob 11,036]

 No, I haven't Craig. My latest anodes are old iron grates from a worn out smoker. They've been probably the best I've use. I'm no metallurgy dude by any means but the idea is interesting. You have some there. Are you going to try it?

[AMC RULES 37,127]

Supposedly, keeps the tank/ removal process much cleaner...

[FarmerJim 5]

You gotta love ol Shop Dog Sam ! certainly not in a hurry for anything. anyone know where one could get plates like he is using?? I have top notch results with just plain old re-bar  but it never hurts to try to kick it up a notch!

[AMC RULES 37,127]

You'd be suprised...    

there's more graphite than you can shake a stick at listed on Ebay.

If you're patient, you find exactly the size you're looking for there.

Try searching "graphite scrap"...worked for me.

Seller listed 8-10 pieces, but a whole box arrived for less than $20 shipped.