JEGibbs 11 #1 Posted August 23, 2014 Raider 14 with 6 fwd 2 rev I had the drive belt break today. took it to the parts house and bought a new belt. The new one is 1/4" longer than the old one. They don't carry fractional sizes. It went on tight like a new belt should but now, randomly when I stop to change gears, it's like when the syncros go out in an old ford. The gears grind a little or it doesn't want to come out of gear and stop. The brakes are also pitiful. It seams like there isn't any "feather" left in the clutch. Keep in mind this isn't every single time but it's at least 50% of the time.What am I doing wrong? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,131 #2 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) if the belt is longer than before by 1/4" the belt profile probably isn't allowing the belt and/or pulleys to slip enough when the clutch is pushed in. either the belt isn't slipping enough on the engine pulley and is still moving when the clutch is in, or any belt fingers or the belt cover isn't positioned properly. for the gears to be grinding you still have movement inside the transmission. all movement at the transmission pulley needs to be stopped otherwise the gears will grind. the belt guard is installed on the tractor, isn't it? without starting a debate here on oem vs aftermarket belts, i wish to say this is one of the reasons i only use oem belts. i have never had a problem when replacing belts with the same part number as originally on the tractor or application. Edited August 23, 2014 by Martin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmaynard 15,419 #3 Posted August 23, 2014 if the belt is longer than before by 1/4" the belt profile probably isn't allowing the belt and/or pulleys to slip enough... Wouldn't too long of a belt have the opposite effect? I'm going with "you forgot to put the belt cover back on". 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JEGibbs 11 #4 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) The original belt was a wheel horse belt. But the numbers were wore off. we just measured the belt and got the closest match. Width and thickness is the same only the lenght is different. old 81.3/4", new 82" The belt cover is installed. There weren't any fingers just the to main pullies and the tensioner. Edited August 23, 2014 by JEGibbs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ed Kennell 38,006 #5 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) Like Martin said, The belt guard must be on so the "belt brake" can work properly. The moving tab on the idler pulley must pinch the belt against the stationary tab in the belt guard to stop the belt movement and allow gear shifting. Are either of these tabs missing or bent ? Edited August 23, 2014 by ekennell Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
N3PUY 1,031 #6 Posted August 23, 2014 I had a GT-1100 that the belt would jump out of the pulley on the motor and end up between the 2 pulleys. That was like putting it on a larger pulley. Went faster and the clutch had almost no effect since the belt got so tight. Brakes would barely stop it and couldn't shift unless it was shut off. Fixed it by adjusting the belt retainers at the motor pulley. Also the metal retainer on the clutch pulley will grab and hold the belt if adjusted correctly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,131 #7 Posted August 23, 2014 but what is the belt section? the width and length are only 2 parts of the equation, the angle of the v is important too. the longer length will help release, like Bob said, but i am saying its either not slipping in the v or no belt guard. the belt guard shapes the belt routing so that when the clutch is pushed in the extra length created by relaxing belt tension is pulled out of the engine and transmission pulleys. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,131 #8 Posted August 23, 2014 raider 14 had a 7473 belt (5/8 x 82") Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,131 #9 Posted August 23, 2014 Wouldn't too long of a belt have the opposite effect? I'm going with "you forgot to put the belt cover back on". i didn't explain that correctly. what i meant to say is that since the belt is supposedly longer than what was on there, that wouldn't be the problem. the profile of the belt is what i would be looking at. sorry.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JEGibbs 11 #10 Posted August 23, 2014 It's a gates B79 belt. The only info i can find is it is classified as a b section. are the toro 7473 and gates 7473 the same belt? because the diminsions are the same too. Also there was a tab on the tensioner pully. there isnt an idler pully on my tractor. Is there a tab on the large sheetmetal belt guard that lines up with the tensioner? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,131 #11 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) gates 7473 is 47.83 long wh 7473 is 82 long Edited August 23, 2014 by Martin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JEGibbs 11 #12 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) To clarify, the Gates B79 and the Toro 7473 are the same lenght and width. I don't know why there was a 1/4 inch shorter wheel horse belt on there originally Edited August 23, 2014 by JEGibbs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,131 #13 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) the tensioner pulley is called an idler. the tab on the top of the idler is a close fit, you should have about a 3/16 to 1/4 gap between the tab and pulley. the pulley needs to be removed to install the belt. its a bit hard to see here but this is how the belt should be with the guard removed, i will try and find a close up pic of the tab and idler.... Edited August 23, 2014 by Martin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JEGibbs 11 #14 Posted August 23, 2014 Hey Martin! Thank you. Now that I'm speaking the same language as you all I understand. The Belt guard (tab ,not the actual safety guard that bolts to the fender) Is like 3/4" above the Idler pully. Thats my problem then. See, I was taught that Idler pullies just spin and maintain belt tracking while tensioners keep tension and engage things. I didn't have to remove that tab to install the belt. It slipped right in. I didn't know to look for that. Thanks guys. I will adjust that and report back Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JEGibbs 11 #15 Posted August 23, 2014 Also Martin, Those are some pretty horses you've got there. Makes mine look like a gaited mule. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ed Kennell 38,006 #16 Posted August 23, 2014 It's a gates B79 belt. The only info i can find is it is classified as a b section. are the toro 7473 and gates 7473 the same belt? because the diminsions are the same too. Also there was a tab on the tensioner pully. there isnt an idler pully on my tractor. Is there a tab on the large sheetmetal belt guard that lines up with the tensioner? What you are calling the tensioner pulley is what I called the idler pulley. Yes there should be a tab on the belt guard just forward of the tension pulley when the clutch is depressed. The belt should ride above the guard tab and below the pulley tab. OK, I took a couple pics of my Raider 14. The bottom pic is with the clutch depressed. You can see how the pulley tab would pinch the belt agajnst the tab on the belt guard if it were in place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,131 #17 Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) the tab should be at right angles to the 'tensioner' arm..... this is what you are calling the belt guard, correct? if so you still need to have the belt cover (large cover that covers up the whole belt path) on as well for it all to function as it should....... Edited August 23, 2014 by Martin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martin 2,131 #18 Posted August 23, 2014 i guess Ed and myself are have a posting race here. since Ed has pics of a Raider he wins....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JEGibbs 11 #19 Posted August 23, 2014 The tab on your belt guard (large sheet metal ) isn't on mine. There isn't any evidence that one was ever there either. I took pictures.but have no idea on how to load the in this thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ed Kennell 38,006 #20 Posted August 23, 2014 No race here Martin. I just happened to have my Raider apart to show the two tabs. Hopefully JEGibbs will be the winner. One other thing I do to these two tabs is to increase the bend where the belt enters and exits the tabs. Make sure they are smooth with no burrs as they will wear on the belt covering. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JEGibbs 11 #22 Posted August 23, 2014 what I don't get is the tractor worked fine until the belt decided to go. There appears to be no missing pieces that have recently come off Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ed Kennell 38,006 #23 Posted August 23, 2014 Is there a tab bolted to the side plate as shown on Martins first pic? Not sure what year Raider you have, but maybe WH changed the design and moved it from the belt guard to the side plate, which is a much better design, as you can check and adjust the clutch operation with the belt guard removed. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JEGibbs 11 #24 Posted August 23, 2014 Mine is a 1972 Raider 14. From what I've read on here it's the only year that wheel horse made it. This is everything there is. nothing else was removed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ed Kennell 38,006 #25 Posted August 23, 2014 what I don't get is the tractor worked fine until the belt decided to go. There appears to be no missing pieces that have recently come off Now I am confused. I don't see how this could have worked w/o the stationary tab. Any ideas Martin ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
