B-80 Transmission Input Pully Frozen

[r356c 375]

I finally got my first Wheel Horse after months of looking at far too many rusted out neglected horses. Florida heat and humidity can reduce any machine stored outside in the weather to scrap metal with alarming speed. My new horse was owned by a retired aircraft A&P mechanic. He didn't have to be told that corrosion is the enemy. My B-80 horse is original and corrosion free, a rare find in Florida. He and his son had rebuilt the engine about 8 years ago with a .010 oversize piston and rings. No smoke and it started right up. The steering is tight and did I mention no rust?

 

Now for my transmission mystery. The input shaft and pully is locked solid. It shifts into all the gears. It rolls in neutral fine with no alarming crunchy noises. The brake drum spins when rolling in neutral as well.

 

One other thing I will need the forums help for parts for the right side drive shaft and wheel hub. The picture tells the story.

 

[rmaynard 15,408]

First of all, what year is the B-80? Looking at the hub, I would guess that it is a 1" axle, making it a 1974 or 1975 4-speed. Not sure why the input shaft is locked, but I have two disassembled B-80 4-speeds that we can get you some parts from if needed.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

[Racinbob 11,030]

Cool! Somebody else from Florida!    Finding a Wheel Horse in any condition can be a trick down here. There just aren't many around. You've found the right place for help with yours. I'll be watching this closely for more info on exactly what you have and your problem(s).

[AMC RULES 37,125]

[r356c 375]

It is a 1" axle for sure. It is a 4-speed. I'll try and pin down the year with the serial number lookup today. A huge thanks for the parts offer!

 

The left side hub is being appropriately stubborn about coming off, so it is probably in good condition. A trip to Harbor Freight for a BIG 3 jaw puller is in my immediate future.

This B-80 will need an open case transmission inspection for sure.

 

Wheelhorseforum.com is the best.

[kudzu3 323]

Don't know your experience, but I tore into mine knowing nothing about those things, and with a lot of help from the folks here, fixed my problem. I'm sure that when you get in there you'll see the problem. Good luck with it.

[Racinbob 11,030]

Much like kudzu3, I tore into mine with minimal experience. I have had a couple apart but never had serious issues until I got this 5010. The folks here are great! I was leery of tearing it all apart and seeing a pile of gears on the workbench but now that fear is completely gone. You probably have a 5084, maybe a 5080. The biggest difference from those and my 5010 is that I have the 3 piece case. I also have a few parts so I may be able to help you. Good luck with that hub. I ended up having to cut the left axle. I was fortunate enough to have 2 new axles sent to me :thanks: so I have the one that I got out uncut. But try to save yours. I believe you have splined axle gears and mine has keyed. Where abouts in central Florida are you?

Edited June 13, 2014 by Racinbob

[stevasaurus 22,683]

Welcome to Red Square.    It is hard to say why your input shaft is froze when you can shift it, the brake drum turns and you can roll the tractor in neutral.  Your input shaft rides on 2 needle bearings about 2" from each other.  I would not force it, knowing you are going to open it.  Drain the trans and see what the oil looks like and if you have some water in there.  Luckily, when you go to split the trans, you want to take off the brake drum side (the shallow side).  Plenty of help here...let us know. 

 

Maybe, I am misunderstanding what you are saying.  Are you saying that you cannot turn the pulley, or are you saying that the pulley is stuck on the shaft but you can turn the input shaft and pulley??  I think you are saying the pulley is stuck on the shaft.

Edited June 13, 2014 by stevasaurus

[r356c 375]

Thanks everyone for the support! It means a lot when diving into unfamiliar territory.

 

The pulley *may* be stuck on the shaft, but the immediate concern aside from the left hub really really liking where it is mounted is the input pulley and shaft, together, are frozen solid. No rotation action at all. Solid. Very strange to me given the normal feel of the shifter and good rolling in neutral.

 

First things first, the left hub has had a penetrating oil soak overnight, gentle tapping with a ball peen, a nice propane torch warm up and a session with the biggest 3-jaw puller Harbor Freight has with an air impact wrench.

The hub won. It broke one of the 3-jaw straps. Granted, Harbor Freight stuff isn't Snap-On, but still, that is one stubborn hub!

[stevasaurus 22,683]

At this point, and I have done this, take a 4" grinder and carefully cut the hub along the length of the axle.  A Sawsall will work also, but the grinder is a lot more fun.  If Bob has an axle and hub, and I bet he does, just cut off the axle.  It is really weird that the input shaft is stuck and everything else turns and shifts. 

 

Edited June 13, 2014 by stevasaurus

[r356c 375]

As luck would have it, I just picked up a 4" angle grinder and metal cutting wheels. I will do the lengthwise cut in the hub and try to save the axle.

Edited June 14, 2014 by r356c

[Racinbob 11,030]

Hang on Steve. If I'm not mistaken he has splined axle gears. I'm thinking mine won't work for him.

[stevasaurus 22,683]

That's right Bob...your axle will not work...I was referring to Bob Maynard with his B-80 transmission parts.    I keep forgetting how many Bobs we have on this site.

 

r356c...did you find copies of the trans manual, videos or other threads for your trans...I can post links here if you need. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by stevasaurus

[r356c 375]

Yes, I did see a full transmission service manual .PDF somewhere.  Thanks!

The hitch pin popped out like it was installed yesterday.

The transmission input pulley is not parallel to the case by a degree or two in the direction that the belt puts tension on it.

Preliminary guess without splitting the case is the needle bearing cage fell apart and a single needle bearing is wedged in the gears. Hopfully the casting isn't toast.

Edited June 13, 2014 by r356c

[Racinbob 11,030]

Oops! Sorry Steve. I should have known you knew that.

r356c, After trying everything I could to get my left hub off I ended up cutting the axle. But, not before I knew I could get new axles. I gave the hub with the cut off piece stuck in it to my son-in-law who took it to the mechanic where he works. They have a 5 ton press and took it to the limit but the stub popped out and my hub was saved. I guess it would come down to whichever part you have the easiest access to a replacement.

[stevasaurus 22,683]

Here ya go...your trans is in Section IV...

 

http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/Transmissions/492-4004.pdf

[r356c 375]

From an external inspection, and cross referencing the manual, the needle bearing supporting the input shaft has migrated elsewhere inside the transmission.

 

Time for the grinder.

[can whlvr 993]

if your hub isn't damaged you could build on like I did from an angle iron,a 3/4 inch nut and bolt and 5 grade 8 bolts,ive not had a hub yet that didn't come off no damage

[r356c 375]

You are probably right Don. There is something satisfying about grinding apart an offending part.

 

Another interesting failure on the left side... the woodruff key actually fractured the axle. I have never seen that happen before.

 

At least I can split the case now.

Edited June 14, 2014 by r356c

[stevasaurus 22,683]

From an external inspection, and cross referencing the manual, the needle bearing supporting the input shaft has migrated elsewhere inside the transmission.

 

Time for the grinder.

I really doubt this is possible...you have 2 needle bearings holding a 4" shaft and there is really no place for them to go.  More likely, it is rust, or a floating needle stuck in a gear...or maybe a broken tooth off of one of the gears in a bad position.  I usually like to try to guess what may be going on,  This one is baffling , but it is about all it can be.  When you open it up, you will see what I am talking about.  If I had to guess right now with the information you put forth...it is something stuck between the input gear and the bottom pinion gear on the cluster gear shaft...if not rust...not much else it can be when everything else moves freely. 

 

BTW...your casting should be OK and your trans is fixable. 

 

We posted at the same time above...I think you meant Steve.    Yes...explains why the hub was stuck.

 

Check out this video and see if it works for you...if you have not seen this.  Pretty much the same trans...

 

http://s419.photobucket.com/user/stevasaurus/media/5085%20videos/2010_0417trans50850002.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0

Edited June 13, 2014 by stevasaurus

[r356c 375]

Steve,

I had seen Don's hub puller and felt a little bad about grinding a hub to pieces.

 

Here is what I found inside. I'll call both of our guesses correct. The input did start turning during the final disassembly stage.

Both input shaft needle bearings are done. Any input shaft I can lay hands on will look better than this one.

The unobtainable main bearings look serviceable at first glance and the rest will need a good cleaning and inspection.

No water damage, just run dry.

Keep those transmissions filled folks!

Edited June 14, 2014 by r356c

[stevasaurus 22,683]

You have done well.  I missed Don's post...that is a very heavy duty puller he made and it works great...it might have saved your hub. Excellent work today.  Send RMaynard a PM when you figure out the parts you need.  I have to ask you...you retired or just happened to have Friday off??    It was fun working with you today.

[stevasaurus 22,683]

Just a final question...Would you say that the needles from the input shaft bearing were pinching the shaft and keeping it from turning, and when you removed the left side of the trans case...it released the tension on that shaft and enabled it to turn??? 

[r356c 375]

Steve,

 

Thanks for the encouragement during what could have been a bad day.  Everyone's input is greatly appreciated. The Wheel Horse community is great!

 

Semi-retired.

 

On the input pulley freeing up, I had the case rotated 90 degrees from normal on its side and gave the input pulley quick left and right rotation force.

I think a needle dislodged from the gears somewhere. There were are a couple of needle bearings in the bottom of the case with bends in them.

 

These transmissions are heavy duty by any standard. After the rebuild, I would not be surprised to see another 40 years of service out of it.

Edited June 14, 2014 by r356c

[stevasaurus 22,683]

Thanks r356c...it was a pleasure being a part of this.  I'll bet you get more then 40 years out of that transmission...and you are right...it is a very good group of people here...you just increased it by one.