Replacement engine recommendations for C101

[atrus5 0]

My wife and had had our Wheel Horse since about 1987.  We have used it ever since for mowing the lawn and love it.  We have since added a rear finish mower on our tractor so the Wheel Horse is now more of a "trimmer" and used for towing the roller and spreader as needed.

 

We bought it used and it had an 8HP Briggs engine in it.  It is the right color but honestly I don't know if it is original - thought they typically had Kohlers in them.  But the price was right and we had our first house so needed a mower.

 

But the engine is starting to get a bit tired so I'm considering options.  Rebuild engine, replace engine, upgrade engine...  

 

I would ideally like to put the Kohler in it but don't think I'm going to find one of those around any more that is a reasonable price and in good shape.  (I like to keep things original as much as I can and the switch to Kohler is probably moving more toward original.)

 

I came across this forum and was surprised to see that these are restored, collected and have such a strong following.  So I thought I would toss the question out there to see what advice I can get.

 

I've added a picture of the mower.  Sorry but I didn't take the time to pull it out and wash it up pretty like so many of the mowers on this forum.  There are some real nice ones!

[can whlvr 993]

if I were you I would put a kohler in it from the same era,i cant tell from your pic if the shaker plate is present,the reason I ask is you need to match the oil pan to a shaker,if you don't have it then I would look for a kohler that doesn't use the plate,try to contact our member Kelly,he is a used parts guy and is from Michigan tooo so maybe hes close enough to you to get a motor from

I also put a 13 hp Honda in one of my horses,its great but I don't have lights,or electris start,and its not oem,for a restoration this is not an option,for a worker it was a great thing too do,no battery,no wiring issues,allways starts even at - 30,but it needed to sit on a riser plate and uses a 1 inch drive pulley instead of the 1-1/8 like the big blocks

Edited May 19, 2014 by can whlvr

[Fordiesel69 259]

Honestly I would search for a 10HP kohler, however a 12HP will be much easier to find.  Externally they are indentical and will bolt up 100%.  You will need the shaker plate.

 

So you can do a search on the following tractors and have a direct swap:

 

C-101

C-121

C-141

C-161

C-105

C-125

C-145

C-165

 

I recommend you buy a beat up, sun faded, rusted, hunk of junk that is complete, and rob the engine and brackets.  Then part out the rest.  I have had very little success getting just an engine as people want the same price as a tractor for them.

 

That little briggs will run forever even if tired.  Unless of course you get a rod knock.

[Foozerush 40]

Why not just rebuild it? Eliminates re-wiring, and mounting, it's already mounted. I don't see any mods to hood in that pic to make it fit. I wouldn't imagine a rebuild on that Briggs would be a ton. Can't wait to see what you do to it, looks solid...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kelly 1,029]

What model is the tractor ? right on the decal on the side of the hood, I'm going to say the briggs is NOT orig. as if it was there would be a notch in the hood for the aircleaner, and I don't see it, I have dozens of engines that would be a direct bolt in, but depending on what was done to the tractor to fit the briggs you may need more than just a engine to do the swap, I'm about a 2 hour drive from you. 

[atrus5 0]

Wow, you guys are fast.  I'm glad I signed up for notification of responses since I probably would not have checked the site  for a week.

 

It is a C101.  At least according to the stickers on both sides of the hood and pictures I've seen online of one.

 

You guys picked right up on the air cleaner. Impressive.  There is a crease or ding from it interfering with the hood to the front of it.  It has space to the top.  The crease has always been there but it is missing paint so I don't think it is factory intent.

 

I'll have to try to find a picture of what you are referring to as the "shaker".  I know the engine sits in a rubber mounted cradle.  I'm not sure if that is what you are referring to.

 

As far as I have noticed nobody has done anything permanent to fit the engine (ie involving a torch or welder) unless they hid it well.  But then again I was not looking for it and I'm not sure what might be missing from the original engine.

 

If you wouldn't mind, I'll see if I can upload a photo or 2 tonight showing the engine better.  Perhaps you can see something I have not.

 

Kelly - My daughter is going to college in East Lansing so we do get over your way.  You are probably a half hour from her.

[atrus5 0]

Here are a few photos of the engine area.  I am having trouble searching for an image of the shaker plate to know for sure but I am assuming that is the plate that the engine is sitting on with rubber which isolates it from the frame.  Honestly, other than a few things like hose splices and wires running unprotected, the engine seems to be a good fit for the mower.  But I am not familiar with the Kohler install.

 

Looking at the photos in this project, it looks like there is a chance that converting to Kohler won't be too bad.  Comparing this to my tractor does not look like there is a lot that was changed.  Even the muffler appears to be the original.

 

I bought it used from a Wheel Horse dealer.  Is it possible that they changed the engine from a different Wheel Horse?  Was a briggs used in some models?

 

I see I neglected to respond to the rebuild question.  It is not out of the question.  I have been slowly replacing engine parts over the years but nothing internal - haven't cracked it open for any reason.  I think I have replaced most of the ignition components (including the coil) over the years.  Next I would focus on the carb and intake (there's a lot of slop in the choke etc).  I just replaced the fuel pump last year..

 

Basically it is getting harder to start and runs rough/stalls when it gets hot.  Have to play with the choke more than usual.  Have to mow in lower gear and sometimes twice over what I could have done once in the past.

 

At this point I'm trying to decide whether to keep fixing up the briggs or go with something else.  It always got the job done but I always felt it could use just a bit more power (it is 8HP).

 

So basically... Looking at the pictures does it look like a Kohler might be an easy swap?  How far would you consider going on the briggs as far as a rebuild?

 

Thanks again for all the help!

Edited May 20, 2014 by atrus5

[atrus5 0]

...a couple more photos

Edited May 20, 2014 by atrus5

[can whlvr 993]

yes that's the shaker plate,that means you could put something of that era in very easy

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,295]

It could have started life as a C-111 and had a hood swap? The C-111 came with an 11hp Briggs from the factory. Whats the model number on the small metal tag say? Should be under the dash or on the side of it.

Mike.........

[shorts 182]

JMO, but I personally wouldn't bother to rebuild a Briggs, just replace it with a new Briggs or a clone. on the other hand if it was a Kohler K of magnum I'd be inclined to spend the time and money to rebuild it to new specs and run it for another 30 years

Edited May 22, 2014 by shorts

[Fordiesel69 259]

However the briggs typically do not have rod / crank issues and a new piston, rings, wristpin, and a valve job might be a cheap way to bring life back.  Unless it has an aluminum cylinder, or has a lot of wear.

 

The 11HP verticals I have done, have all benefited from this and I have not had to get them machined.

[atrus5 0]

Thanks for the shaker plate identification.  I learned something.

 

C111?  I’m not familiar with Wheel Horse models and never considered it might not be a C101…  Now that you mention it, I recall it is 11HP and not 8HP.  Now I’m intrigued, let me call home and have someone run out to the barn…

 

MYSTERY SOLVED!  Yes, it is a 1979 C111 according to the tag.  I looked up the engine code as well and confirmed it is 11hp - sorry for misleading everyone.  Not sure why I said 8HP - isn't aging wonderful.  I'm sure it would have helped everyone if I would have identified the Briggs properly from the start.

 

So it seems that the hood has been replaced - no breather cutout (now I understand what some were referring to in earlier posts) and wrong stickers for a C111.  I'm guessing the Wheel Horse dealer I bought from did the swap. Probably someone damaged the hood and traded it in.  I'll have to go back and complain - wait that was about 27 years ago and the grainery/tractor dealer has long gone out of business like so many other elevators (sad as I was raised on a small farm and hate to see small agriculture being phased out).

 

Actually, I recall that I made them throw in a new sticker set with the tractor since there was something wrong with the ones on it.  Were they peeling back then or mislabeled?  I definitely never used them.  I'm sure I still have the stickers somewhere in a cardboard sleeve but I haven't come across them recently so finding them might be a challenge.  I likely put them somewhere safe so they wouldn’t get damaged and by safe I mean somewhere hard to find.  I wonder if they say C101 or C111?

 

Well, in light of knowing I have a C111 I'll have to rethink where I go from here.  I liked the idea of moving to a robust Kohler and making it more original… but the Briggs is original… but the hood is not original anyway… to invest in a Briggs or not…  I need to rethink this with all the new information from everyone.

 

I’m not against a rebuild.  I have rebuild car and motorcycle engines but never a small engine like this.  I always considered them disposable.  But I’m sure they were better built back then and may be worth the effort.  Knowing it is the original engine pulls me back toward the rebuild at least a little – I haven’t looked into cost at all or how much is even possible on “mower enginesâ€.  Hopefully it doesn’t need sleeved or anything extreme.  It does run and is not making any extra noise, not burning oil.  I guess I should check the compression and see if I can find out where to find specs on this thing.  But I still think I might have a fuel problem (at least).

 

Thank you, everyone for all your help.  All posts were considered and vauable even if I didn’t reply directly.  This has been very informative and honestly kind of fun.

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,026]

Tractor details

 

Parts list

 

Garry

[atrus5 0]

Great documentation. Thank You!  I could have used this years ago.

 

I almost did not download the Parts List because of this comment on the linked page.

"Not in this manual
1979 C-111 8-speed model 91-11B801"

 

But I downloaded anyway and it appears to be in there so I'm not sure what is being referred to by that.

 

Thanks again.

 

Now that I'm getting spoiled with this documentation I need to find the engine manual.

[atrus5 0]

With the nice mowers on this site, I'm feeling like I need to pull it out and put a coat of wax on it.  It is in nice shape for it's age and still gets regular baths but hasn't been waxed for years now.  Since the addition of the Kubota L2950 with rear finish mower (barely visible in upper right of first photo) the Wheel Horse doesn't get as much attention.  Although with it's use significantly reduced and always having a roof over it's head, I guess it is semi-retired and that in itself is probably more pampering than most mowers.

 

I would have thought it was a bit over the top to wheel the paint on a mower but now you guys have got me wondering

 

...but first I have an engine to figure out.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,026]

Don't know where I got the Not in this manual.

 

Here are the engine manuals

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/3839-engine-bs-252417pdf/

 

Garry

[Desko 608]

I'd just rebuild the motor Briggs are fairly simple to rebuild

[atrus5 0]

Thanks for the engine manuals.  The explosions in the parts manual will be very helpful.

 

Agree on the rebuild.  I've decided to go that route.  But there are a few projects ahead of it.  (The dumpster arrives today for the shingle tear-off on the shed.)

[pfrederi 17,635]

JMO, but I personally wouldn't bother to rebuild a Briggs, just replace it with a new Brigs or a clone. on the other hand if it was a Kohler K of magnum I'd be inclined to spend the time and monet to rebuild it to new specs and run it for another 30 years

 

 

That Briggs held up for a long time and would probably last a long time into the future with a rebuild.

[atrus5 0]

I definitely see both sides on the rebuild versus replace. 

 

If it was a Kohler, it would be a no-brainer to rebuild it based on what I have heard of those engines. For the Briggs it is not so obvious.  I tend to like to keep things original (except for the hood ) - I started on the Kohler replacement trek when I thought that was what it had originally.  But that is a personal preference. 

 

The Briggs has been a good engine and is still running, although weaker.  I think the older engines are more robust than the new ones although not as efficient.  If not for the personal side, the decision to replace might be the better one.  I'm not sure. 

 

I won't know for sure until I tear into the engine.  If things are worse than I am guessing in there, nostalgia might get tossed aside and a replacement might be in line. 

 

But for now, I think I'll see what I can do with the current engine.  I really haven't spent that much time on this engine other than addressing immediate needs over the years that prevented it from running - no spark (armature), no fuel (pump).  I think it's worth seeing what it will take to refresh it without breaking it open and then moving inwards as necessary.  Or maybe I'll find that the parts are so cheap I should just go for it all - don't know yet.

 

Thanks again for all the advice!

[atrus5 0]

Sparky - Look what I found up sitting on a nailer in the barn protected by a steel shelving unit.  I had a random memory "spark" responding to this forum and the day off waiting for dumpster to arrive so ran out to the barn to check it out.

 

Once I saw these it jarred some memories loose.  I vaguely recall that he did discuss this with me and mentioned the hood being replaced.  Kinda got me excited to know that it's not that my memory is bad, it's just that my filing system is messy. I usually can't remember yesterday, let alone almost 30 years ago

 

Thanks all for leading me down the path to recovering the past!  And sorry for leading you guys the long way around on this topic.  I'm so glad I joined this forum and tossed this question out there.  It never occurred to me how uninformed my decision was going to be.

 

Hmmm, I wonder if the adhesive on these is still any good...

 

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

order up a full set from Terry, then once you finish repainting your tractor they will be good for another 30+ years!

 

I would think the adhesive is not the greatest anymore especially with that 'bubble folding' you see there.

[shorts 182]

Cost out the repair vs replace on the Briggs, also look at the block most of them are aluminum with a cast I  place sleeve that cannot be bored oversize to get them round and straight again for proper performance, typically if you get in deeper than a valve job or just having the valve stems ground to adjust the valve to lifter gap it's time to replace the engine. I'm not saying that you can't rebuild the engine but it's really only a freshen up and not a full rebuild that will run as well or last as long as a new engine.

[Desko 608]

The Briggs engine on this tractor I can bet is all aluminum except the crank, cam, and some other bits and pieces it probably just needs honed and reringed